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Old 24th May 2016, 17:30   #38141  |  Link
aufkrawall
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Originally Posted by fedpul View Post
Hi aufkrawall, I have been making some comparisons and I think SXBR 150 is too sharp and make a lot of artifacts (ringing especially) visible (even when de-ringing enabled, without it, it just rings a lot). Obviusly it depends on the source quality.
Are you sure that it's ringing and not some other kind of artifacts?
High super-xbr sharpness seems to tend more to the "knot" artifacts which are one of super-xbr's peculiarities (like e.g. the weird line doubling that can happen with NNEDI3).
Anti-ringing filter for super-xbr has received some good progress in the last months.

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I think SXBR AB 25 is one of the most balanced doubling upscalers when it comes to: resources, image quality and artifacts masking. Just my humble opinion.
I agree that's a very sane scaler. However, the sharpness value seems lower than super-xbr 150 and so there is more aliasing, especially with cartoons.

My goal was to achieve a similar sharpness as with NNEDI3 + SR 3 or 4 while still being able to use the deringing filter. The problem is that high SR srength can lead to very ugly artifacts in combination with deringing filter, so I tried out super-xbr 150 instead of high SR strength and it looks very good to my eyes.
Deringing and SR 1 give some very nice anti-bloating effect with super-xbr 150.
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Old 24th May 2016, 18:56   #38142  |  Link
XTrojan
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This 2.4 vs 2.2 battle is overall stupid.

Rec709 movies are supposed to be seen with 2.2 gamma.

If you want to raise the gamma anyway, enable "dynamic contrast" on your TV, just be sure it's originally calibrated to 2.2.

Unless ur TV is very old or a monitor calibrating to 2.4 has no point as modern TVs with dynamic contrast can handle "dynamic" higher gamma better than pure 2.4 gamma (atleast 2013+ models), basically less black/white crush.

Last edited by XTrojan; 24th May 2016 at 18:59.
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Old 24th May 2016, 19:57   #38143  |  Link
Uoppi
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What are the practical differences between the tags levels, blacklevel and brightness in correcting washed out blacks in an encode that otherwise has flawless PQ? Mediainfo reports "limited" but the black level is definitely off. Which tag would be the preferred option to fix this?
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Old 25th May 2016, 03:51   #38144  |  Link
sheppaul
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After cropping black bars, it seems possible to place txt/image subtitles over/under video area with potplayer's built-in subtitle renderer. I only enabled two options in madVR settings: "automatically detect hard coded black bars", "crop black bars" and let potplayer control the position of subtitle. It works well but there is one thing cannot be resolved within potplayer. The conflicting option of potplayer is to reserve two lines for bottom margin for subtitles. Could you look into the issue?

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Old 25th May 2016, 11:11   #38145  |  Link
omarank
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I may do that in some future version, but it's low priority for now.
That will be great. Thanks for considering this!

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* tweaked deringing algorithm some more
I am happy using the deringing option, which I have globally enabled for all content. The good thing is it doesn’t do any harm when the content doesn’t have any obvious ringing.
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Old 25th May 2016, 12:03   #38146  |  Link
James Freeman
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Originally Posted by XTrojan View Post
This 2.4 vs 2.2 battle is overall stupid.
Rec709 movies are supposed to be seen with 2.2 gamma.
True.
All major studios calibrate and grade to 2.2, as noted by many professional colorists on the AVSForum board.
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Old 25th May 2016, 13:56   #38147  |  Link
XMonarchY
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True.
All major studios calibrate and grade to 2.2, as noted by many professional colorists on the AVSForum board.
That would only make sense if consumer TV's were used to grade those films instead of ultra high-end non-consumer TV's with very deep black levels.

A film on high-end studio TV's mastered to PL 2.2 gamma will NOT look the same as the same film on perfectly calibrated consumer TV's with the same PL 2.2 gamma. Hence, the whole concept of "Calibration is all about making sure you see the film as it was mastered" goes out-the-window right there. That is why BT.1886 gamma exists - to accommodate consumer TV's.

Since we established consumer's (most consumers I guess) CANNOT see films as they were mastered due to terrible black levels no matter what gamma is used, it makes more sense to use mathematically and visually accurate BT.1886 gamma that takes black levels into consideration.

You also make a false assumption that film mastering is perfect, but it is not. There are plenty of badly mastered films that looked washed out with both BT.1886 and PL 2.2 gamma's, but BT.1886 does look slightly more washed out.

Watch Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, and The Dark Knight rises. With BT.1886 gamma NOTHING is washed out in those films, as well as plenty of others, like Interstellar, Mad Max, Blu-Ray version of the old X-Files, and other high-grade high quality movies. Then watch the new recently released The Thing (the prequel). Even if you use PL 2.5 gamma to watch that film, it will look washed out because that film uses high grays for something that should've been black.
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Old 25th May 2016, 14:06   #38148  |  Link
kalston
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I am very interested in the gamma discussion myself but this might be something to talk about in a different thread. I've been reading about it here and on AVS and I'm frankly still very confused about the whole 709/1886, 2.2/2.4 thing. There doesn't seem to be any general consensus whatsoever.
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Old 25th May 2016, 14:44   #38149  |  Link
James Freeman
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BT.1886 is terrible (IMO).
No two displays will result in the same curve.

Black Compensated Gamma curve makes sure that from a certain point all displays are equal.
Each display has different black level, but above say 10 nit (variable by user) they are all equal, that's why compensated gamma cure is much closer to reference than BT.1886.
How much should the black compensated gamma curve compress the shadows?
This is a personal taste but the result always looks much more contrasty than 1886 without crushing/clipping any black steps at the bottom.

The sRGB curve is a Black Compensated 2.2 Gamma curve, and IMO it looks better than BT.1886 on a 1000:1 typical LCD display.
If you want to discuss this let's start a new thread and I will gladly show you with pictures and HCFR plots my claims.
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Last edited by James Freeman; 25th May 2016 at 15:01.
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Old 25th May 2016, 16:13   #38150  |  Link
madshi
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Could we maybe move the calibration discussion to a different thread, guys? It's not really madVR specific, so it doesn't really belong here.
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Old 25th May 2016, 16:48   #38151  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
BT.1886 is terrible (IMO).
No two displays will result in the same curve.

Black Compensated Gamma curve makes sure that from a certain point all displays are equal.
Each display has different black level, but above say 10 nit (variable by user) they are all equal, that's why compensated gamma cure is much closer to reference than BT.1886.
How much should the black compensated gamma curve compress the shadows?
This is a personal taste but the result always looks much more contrasty than 1886 without crushing/clipping any black steps at the bottom.

The sRGB curve is a Black Compensated 2.2 Gamma curve, and IMO it looks better than BT.1886 on a 1000:1 typical LCD display.
If you want to discuss this let's start a new thread and I will gladly show you with pictures and HCFR plots my claims.
Looking forward to see your claims A new thread will be good.
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Old 25th May 2016, 18:18   #38152  |  Link
James Freeman
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Come to the SDR Display EOTF (Gamma 2.2/2.4 or BT.1886) thread.
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Old 25th May 2016, 22:49   #38153  |  Link
Megalith
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Does anyone have any thoughts on what madVR will be able to achieve with a GTX 1080? What will we be able to max out with that card?
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Old 25th May 2016, 23:38   #38154  |  Link
aufkrawall
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It won't be much faster than a Titan X, NNEDI3 64 1080p60 -> 4k (Jinc AR for chroma) with SuperRes 3 (+ deband & smooth motion) will probably work, maybe even SR4. But likely not much more. Maybe even less.
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Old 25th May 2016, 23:56   #38155  |  Link
ryrynz
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It won't be much faster than a Titan X
Hard to speculate when it's an entirely new architecture. Perhaps a thread should be started with links to test videos where certain profiles can be benchmarked.
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Old 26th May 2016, 03:12   #38156  |  Link
mrjones
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Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
It won't be much faster than a Titan X, NNEDI3 64 1080p60 -> 4k (Jinc AR for chroma) with SuperRes 3 (+ deband & smooth motion) will probably work, maybe even SR4. But likely not much more. Maybe even less.

A Frame rate increase of 30% for an OC 1080 , when compared to a Titan X - would that not translate into more extreme settings for MADVR?
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Old 26th May 2016, 04:50   #38157  |  Link
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A Frame rate increase of 30% for an OC 1080 , when compared to a Titan X - would that not translate into more extreme settings for MADVR?
It would hence my previous post but this is getting off topic, a benchmarking thread might be useful.
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Old 26th May 2016, 06:54   #38158  |  Link
Uoppi
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OK, I found out using blacklevel tag can make the washed-out picture of a suboptimal encode look better whereas levels seems to do nothing to it.

Some questions though:
1) How does blacklevel work exactly - it compresses/expands the range of blacks below/above 16?
2) When correcting a washed-out picture using blacklevel, should whitelevel or some other parameter be adjusted too to compensate (and if yes, how/why exactly in relation to blacklevel?)
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Old 26th May 2016, 10:53   #38159  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Uoppi View Post
OK, I found out using blacklevel tag can make the washed-out picture of a suboptimal encode look better whereas levels seems to do nothing to it.

Some questions though:
1) How does blacklevel work exactly - it compresses/expands the range of blacks below/above 16?
2) When correcting a washed-out picture using blacklevel, should whitelevel or some other parameter be adjusted too to compensate (and if yes, how/why exactly in relation to blacklevel?)
Most of the time, it's a bad encode that has been improperly expanded. Why not just adjust the Source input levels on the fly. Ctrl+Alt+Shift+I during playback will toggle through all the levels. If I notice a file is washed out, it's the first thing I do (I even set up a button on my remote for this) and it's almost always a double expanded source. Although I did see a triple expanded source once!

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Old 26th May 2016, 11:41   #38160  |  Link
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Most of the time, it's a bad encode that has been improperly expanded. Why not just adjust the Source input levels on the fly. Ctrl+Alt+Shift+I during playback will toggle through all the levels. If I notice a file is washed out, it's the first thing I do (I even set up a button on my remote for this) and it's almost always a double expanded source. Although I did see a triple expanded source once!
Agreed!
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