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Old 9th July 2005, 23:50   #61  |  Link
rubycon
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Wetermarks can be bypassed

As I said earlier:

High quality Stereo (24/96) can be put on a DVD even if watermarked, using DVD-VIDEO and using the PCM wave as sountrack on a blank movie ( to spend the minimum amount of space in the video part)

High quality surround using a watermarked surce is possible by converting the wave( 24/96) to 48K/24 and then to DTS. This soundtrack can be, then, used on a blank video. This is not a lossless solution but it is high quality anyway. IN some DVD audio there is a DTS track for DVD-V compatibility and that part is rippable with the actual means, so only the stereo part is needed.

All this takes time, and is more inconvenient than mere ripping but it is possible since DVD-V does not check watermarking if its sountrack.

One thing about analog connections. Of course a digital connection will give the optimum solution, but if this is not possible because the DVD-A dosn't allow it I don't see any problem with the use of analog.

I can record 6 channel analog ( 24/96) to my computer with a signal to noise ratio of 118 DB. Nobody on earth can hear down to 118 dB. In fact most of the recordings don't go that far and background nose is greather than 110dB.

I bet no one is able to tell by the sound which is the copy and which the original.


Rub
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Old 10th July 2005, 01:10   #62  |  Link
drmih
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I'm new to all of this audio stuff and have only been looking at it for a day or so since the tools appeared. As I see it the Holy Grail would be lossless audio from the dvd-audio source. So far these tools can do this but because the watermark is in place they aren't compatible with standalone dvd-audio players - this doesn't seem to be a problem for pc solutions although it has been said on here that the dvd-audio players don't put out lossless multi-channel sound, even if you have a soundcard with 5.1 / 6.1 / 7.1 connections - is this true?

Therefore you can have track files, either mlp or wav which are lossless, can be used for reauthoring, but have watermarks. No doubt, if the watermarks could be removed it wouldn't take someone long to write a programme to 'clone' dvd-audio discs, although having a disc with basic re-authored lossless tracks would probably be fine for most people. I've had a read about the watermarks and I think the following are true, but expert advice would be good to have:

1) the watermark must be in the audio as they remain across different formats.
2) a wave file can withstand a certain amount of tinkering (normalising etc) without loosing the watermarks - however reversing the wav stops them having an effect - not much use for the audio, but the watermark must have a signature which is sequential.
3) when hackers were invited to break the system, one of the conditions was that the audio remained lossless - therefore it suggests that too much meddling with the sound wave will also make the watermark unrecognisable.
4) the watermark can't be too 'big', otherwise it could be heard, and it can't be too high or low pitch, otherwise it would be easy to filter out.
5) they seem to occur at 15 sec intervals.

Are there any clever bods out there who can add some clarification?
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Old 10th July 2005, 21:57   #63  |  Link
Andrey
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Quote:
1) the watermark must be in the audio as they remain across different formats.
Yes they are. On the early stage encoding such an mp3 could easily kill it, but nowdays it seems that watermakrs should survive it.
Quote:
2) a wave file can withstand a certain amount of tinkering (normalising etc) without loosing the watermarks - however reversing the wav stops them having an effect - not much use for the audio, but the watermark must have a signature which is sequential.
As I understand a technology, whatermark is an special signal (defined in frequency) mixed with original wav.
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3) when hackers were invited to break the system, one of the conditions was that the audio remained lossless - therefore it suggests that too much meddling with the sound wave will also make the watermark unrecognisable.
As I understand, it could not be restored w/o any erros in calculations.

Please correct me if I'm wrong...
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Old 11th July 2005, 00:39   #64  |  Link
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So like, what if it doesn't work? I've tried 2 different drives and am using WinDVD 7 on Queen's "Night at the Opera."

I get:

ERR: Cannot create file "H:\ATS_01_1.AOB"

And for the IFOs and BUPs I get:

INF: File is not AOB/VOB stream, just making a copy
ERR: Cannot copy file to "H:\ATS_01_1.IFO"

I'm using the syntax: dvdaripper "F:\AUDIO_TS\" "H:\DVD_AUDIO\"

Of course, I don't know what good this would all do me if I could since I don't have means to burn a copy and I own regular CDs of all my DVD-A's as well. But it sure is fun to play with ...

-abs
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Old 11th July 2005, 09:22   #65  |  Link
drmih
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I haven't had any problems with any disc I've tried. I'm assuming that you've added the "s for clarity in your posting and didn't use them in the command line.

The only programme that I haven't got to work as it should is ppcmripper, which always creates 2 channel wav files regardless of whether I've used an original disc or an iso of a ripped disc. It's interesting that if you put on the -w (watermark detection) that it does show that they're there, but I'm not sure of the purpose of the flag as with or without it windvd v7 doesn't mute the wave files.
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Old 11th July 2005, 13:25   #66  |  Link
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OK, it works without the quotes. Cool, thanks.

But the PPCMRipper cli doesn't seem to make sense. I don't understand how it works as it doesn't seem to specify a source?? Can someone give an example of what they used?

-abs
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Old 11th July 2005, 13:55   #67  |  Link
drmih
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For ppcmripper, use:

(not trying to rub salt into the wound, but ignore everything in the [] brackets, and for c:\temp, replace with any directory on your HDD)

ppcmripper 96000 [you need to check the frequency of the source but the ones I've done have all been 96000] c:\temp -w

Now, with ppcmripper, it automatically takes the dvd drive, or mounted image. If when it starts, windvd doesn't choose your dvd-audio disc, use the pull-down icon in the top left of the windvd playback window and select the drive you put the dvd-audio disc into. It should then go.
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Old 11th July 2005, 19:25   #68  |  Link
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Okay, it all works for me now. Musta been the quotes.

Thanks,

-abs
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Old 12th July 2005, 20:25   #69  |  Link
insane822
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rubycon
As I said earlier:
High quality Stereo (24/96) can be put on a DVD even if watermarked, using DVD-VIDEO and using the PCM wave as sountrack on a blank movie ( to spend the minimum amount of space in the video part)
Rub

What authoring programs support 24/96 PCM audio for DVD-VIDEO? I know that it's in the dvd-video spec. My Sony player supports 96kHz audio on dvd-video.
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Old 12th July 2005, 21:34   #70  |  Link
mpucoder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by insane822
What authoring programs support 24/96 PCM audio for DVD-VIDEO? I know that it's in the dvd-video spec. My Sony player supports 96kHz audio on dvd-video.
Scenarist, DVDMaestro, and MuxMan to name a few.
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Old 12th July 2005, 23:17   #71  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpucoder
Scenarist, DVDMaestro, and MuxMan to name a few.
This might be slightly off topic, but will a ripped 24/96 dvd-audio track not work?

Muxman gives me an error of "LPCM quantization not allowed".

bitrate = 4608
samplerate = 96000
channels = 2
codec = PCM
bitspersample = 24
24390640 samples @ 96000Hz
File size: 146 343 884 bytes
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Old 13th July 2005, 01:36   #72  |  Link
mpucoder
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It should work. In order to determine why it was not acceptable I'll need to see the header (everything from 'RIFF' to 'data'). But let's continue this in the DVD authoring forum.
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Old 14th July 2005, 19:06   #73  |  Link
drmih
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Just to answer my own questions:

To rip 6 channel sound you need to do the following:
1) In the Sound and Audio devices in the Windows control panel, change the speaker settings to 5.1 speakers.
2) Load up WinDVD and in the AudioCentre settings make sure that 24bit/96Hz Output is checked, and that the speakers are also set at 6 channel. Apply and exit.
3) Use dvdaripper to rip the AUDIO_TS directory to the HDD (and VIDEO_TS using dvddecrypter if you want it).
4) I used NERO to create an image of the structure on the HDD (if you want to make a watermarked version at this stage you can use Gear Pro to make a compliant disc [rather than Nero], but if you play it on a standalone it'll mute after 15 seconds).
5) Either mount the image using Daemon Tools, or use the ripped disc, and then use ppcmripper. You will now get either 2 or 6 channel wave files created on the HDD which can be remastered to say a DTS dvd-video disc, which is as near as damn it equal in quality to the dvd-audio.
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Old 15th July 2005, 00:41   #74  |  Link
mpucoder
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Just want to add one thing - DVD-Video limits the total bitrate of audio to about 6Mbps, which means at 24/96 there can be no more than 2 channels. If you want 6 channels you have to drop all the way down to 20/48 (or encode to DTS).
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Old 15th July 2005, 10:08   #75  |  Link
drmih
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How do you encode to DTS as I've tried using scenarist and it gives muxing errors straight away - I input a 6 channel wav file which it seems to accept okay and then used a bitmap as a slideshow stretched to fit the time. When I tried DVDMaestro with the same wav file is went off and created a PRA file which was approaching 10GB when I crashed it.
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Old 15th July 2005, 14:23   #76  |  Link
Pitou
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I'm still looking for a good software to burn back the disk. I'm interested in Dual Layer as well.

Tried Gear, discjuggler, nero, Imgtool classic, but they're not 100%.

Any idea?

Thanks.

Pitou!
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Old 15th July 2005, 16:33   #77  |  Link
drmih
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Gear Pro Master definately produces compliant discs. However, a pc seems to play a non compliant disc anyway - it's only my standalone dvd-audio player that objects. As the watermark security prevents the discs from playing properly anyway, it may be a pointless exercise.

Last edited by drmih; 15th July 2005 at 16:35.
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Old 15th July 2005, 17:18   #78  |  Link
Pitou
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What should I hear or not hear if a watermark is present?

Or could you explain what is a watermark exactly, I mean technically, if possible

Thanks.

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Old 15th July 2005, 18:56   #79  |  Link
Doom9
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What should I hear or not hear if a watermark is present?
Nothing at all.. that's the whole point of a watermark: to add information to a media source that cannot be spotted, that survives re-encoding and that can be extracted again to find out the original source of a copy.
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Old 15th July 2005, 19:01   #80  |  Link
drmih
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The typical watermarks on dvd-audios are spaced at 15 second intervals. Where ever you jump to in the track, as soon as you hit a multiple of 15 secs the player mutes and that's it.
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