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Old 1st June 2019, 23:33   #56421  |  Link
Siso
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Originally Posted by garson View Post
Thanks huhn.
Anything I can do to change/fix this (decoder queue being high)? This is CPU queue size in madvr general settings, right?
Default is 12, I increased it to 16 (saw some recommendations).
CPU queue is 16 by default
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Old 1st June 2019, 23:37   #56422  |  Link
garson
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CPU queue is 16 by default
Oh, ok.
I am gonna try to increase it a bit and see how it goes.
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Old 2nd June 2019, 04:12   #56423  |  Link
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@garson,

is there a reason you're watching a 720p file ? is that just for testing ?

Scaling 720p to 1080p results in far worse quality and more gpu use than simply watching a 1080p file.
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Old 2nd June 2019, 04:46   #56424  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
Isn't it correct for a 2.40:1 movie to have black bars when shown on a 2.35:1 screen? Otherwise, you would lose image data.

Edit: I think the only possible solution I can think of is to set up a 2.35:1 profile in screen config with the top and bottom of the image cropped to get a 2.35:1 aspect ratio and then check zoom big black bars away to see if the 2.40:1 movie (I assume that is Lucy on UHD Blu-ray) is zoomed beyond the borders of the media player window with some cropping at the screen edges.
So he is using an anamorphic lens. The lens stretches the image out horizontally to fill out the screen. It's a rather large 15ft wide screen.

The projector is doing the vertical stretch. We don't use madvR to do the stretch for other reasons. (rendering times go from 30ms to 300ms when we enable anamorphic stretch in madVR due to how the image and chroma scaling compound or something like that.)

His screen is 2.37:1 and the movie is 2.40:1.

What he normally does, is zooms the projector so that the narrowest movies (2.40:1) fill the screen vertically, and then that means they overshoot the sides by a bit. This also means that 2.35:1 movies will overshoot all 4 sides. Normally with a decent projector this isn't a problem since they offer image masking, and you just mask off the 4 sides of the projector's image to fit your screen perfectly. This is what he did on his previous JVC RS600.

However, he just got a BenQ LK970 laser projector that does not have this masking option.

I think another issue is that his anamorphic lens is not perfect and it stretches the image horizontally slightly more than it should. So the issue is that if he wants to fill his screen vertically, the image will always overshoot his screen horizontally. This is why we need to cover some of the projector's image with black essentially so that the overshoot is invisible.

I am trying to understand your edited response, but I will have to think about it some more. Maybe my latest reply here sheds some more light on the set up and what we are trying to achieve.

Recap:

2.40 movie, stretched vertically by the projector to fill the projector's full 16:9 panel. Projector stretch is a 2.35:1 -> 16:9 stretch, so there is still a small black edge on the top and bottom of the projector's 16:9 panel after it vertically stretches 2.35:1 -> 16:9, because the movie is 2.40:1.

Projector is lens zoomed to make the 2.40:1 image fill the 2.37:1 screen vertically. This leaves a horizontal picture overshoot due to 2 factors. 1, because 2.40:1 is a wider aspect ratio than his screen, and 2, because his anamorphic horizontal stretch lens is not perfect and stretches the image slightly too far.

What we need to do in some way is to take a 2.40:1 movie and essentially crop off the sides a bit to make it a narrower aspect ratio. In truth we would also probably crop the top and bottom a little bit too, but again this is a crop that really is just trimming off some of the image data turning it into black, hopefully no zooming or scaling should be taking place or else that just messes it all up again.

So if you viewed this on a normal monitor, it would look like the video does not fill all the way to the edge of the screen, but it's not shrunk so scaling is not affected, it's just covered up by black. Need to render a black border over the top of the video to cover up some of the video on the sides and a little bit on the top and bottom too ideally.

Last edited by SirMaster; 2nd June 2019 at 04:52.
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Old 2nd June 2019, 07:45   #56425  |  Link
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Is it a really weak GPU or using crazy upscaling settings? 300ms is way too high for reasonable settings on even a low end dGPU.

madVR cannot do this, you need a manual crop option and madVR is designed assuming you are not willing to lose more than 7 lines of the image off all sides under any circumstances.
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Old 2nd June 2019, 16:13   #56426  |  Link
Warner306
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Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
So he is using an anamorphic lens. The lens stretches the image out horizontally to fill out the screen. It's a rather large 15ft wide screen.

The projector is doing the vertical stretch. We don't use madvR to do the stretch for other reasons. (rendering times go from 30ms to 300ms when we enable anamorphic stretch in madVR due to how the image and chroma scaling compound or something like that.)

His screen is 2.37:1 and the movie is 2.40:1.

What he normally does, is zooms the projector so that the narrowest movies (2.40:1) fill the screen vertically, and then that means they overshoot the sides by a bit. This also means that 2.35:1 movies will overshoot all 4 sides. Normally with a decent projector this isn't a problem since they offer image masking, and you just mask off the 4 sides of the projector's image to fit your screen perfectly. This is what he did on his previous JVC RS600.

However, he just got a BenQ LK970 laser projector that does not have this masking option.

I think another issue is that his anamorphic lens is not perfect and it stretches the image horizontally slightly more than it should. So the issue is that if he wants to fill his screen vertically, the image will always overshoot his screen horizontally. This is why we need to cover some of the projector's image with black essentially so that the overshoot is invisible.

I am trying to understand your edited response, but I will have to think about it some more. Maybe my latest reply here sheds some more light on the set up and what we are trying to achieve.

Recap:

2.40 movie, stretched vertically by the projector to fill the projector's full 16:9 panel. Projector stretch is a 2.35:1 -> 16:9 stretch, so there is still a small black edge on the top and bottom of the projector's 16:9 panel after it vertically stretches 2.35:1 -> 16:9, because the movie is 2.40:1.

Projector is lens zoomed to make the 2.40:1 image fill the 2.37:1 screen vertically. This leaves a horizontal picture overshoot due to 2 factors. 1, because 2.40:1 is a wider aspect ratio than his screen, and 2, because his anamorphic horizontal stretch lens is not perfect and stretches the image slightly too far.

What we need to do in some way is to take a 2.40:1 movie and essentially crop off the sides a bit to make it a narrower aspect ratio. In truth we would also probably crop the top and bottom a little bit too, but again this is a crop that really is just trimming off some of the image data turning it into black, hopefully no zooming or scaling should be taking place or else that just messes it all up again.

So if you viewed this on a normal monitor, it would look like the video does not fill all the way to the edge of the screen, but it's not shrunk so scaling is not affected, it's just covered up by black. Need to render a black border over the top of the video to cover up some of the video on the sides and a little bit on the top and bottom too ideally.
I think you can accomplish this.

If you don't have the ability to crop an image, showing a 2.40:1 movie on a 2.35:1 or 2.37:1 screen would require leaving small black bars at the top and bottom of the image, like this, rather than have the image spill out the sides:

2.40:1 movie on 2.35:1 screen

If you define at 2.37:1 rectangle in screen config (3840 x 1620 or 4096 x 1728), then zoom control will crop all content to fit this rectangle, so it should always have the correct width and height to fit a 2.37:1 scope screen with cropping when necessary.

Under zoom control, you need to select automatically detect hard coded black bars and if there are big black bars ...zoom the bars away completely.

I really don't know how an anamorphic lens works in practice. So I can't tell you if the lens will stretch this rectangle correctly. You should be able to use the anamorphic stretch in madVR with zoom control enabled. If you are outputting to 4096 x 2160p, then set image upscaling to something like Lanczos3 + AR to lower rendering times for the required upscaling.

I think the anamorphic stretch looks right without screen masking in screen config with zoom control set to automatically detect hard coded black bars and if there are big black bars ...zoom the bars away completely.

I wrote some instructions on zoom control in the madVR guide in my signature (under 2. Processing) that could be worth reading. There are also some pictures with my TV used as the example projector screen to show what zoom control is doing, but there is no anamorphic stretch in the example. Because I can't test this, I'm not sure if I got the instructions right. I guess you can try them and report back...
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Old 2nd June 2019, 18:45   #56427  |  Link
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Originally Posted by bcec View Post
@madshi:

there's been an influx of 4k remasters with teal+orange color grading that looks awful. do you think it would ever be possible to add something like a de-teal/orange at all?
As an amateur filmmaker, I can tell you that it's most probably not possible. Color grading is a very complex task done shot by shot with an artistic intent. It's not something that can be done (or "undone", which is technically doing another color grading based on an already color graded picture, with which will only degrade picture quality) on the fly with an algorithm. Even the auto-adjust option or LUT presets you can find in NLVE software like Adobe Premiere are just a base you have to manually tweak shot by shot for optimal results.

Bottom line : no, I don't think you can "un-teal & un-orange" a movie that has been color graded this way
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Old 2nd June 2019, 20:15   #56428  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
If you don't have the ability to crop an image, showing a 2.40:1 movie on a 2.35:1 or 2.37:1 screen would require leaving small black bars at the top and bottom of the image, like this, rather than have the image spill out the sides:
What they want is no small black bars at the top and bottom, losing image data off the sides. They already know how to get a proper image but they would rather lose some ot the image from the sides than have the remaining black bars.

This is why it cannot be done with madVR.
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Old 2nd June 2019, 20:23   #56429  |  Link
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Bottom line : no, I don't think you can "un-teal & un-orange" a movie that has been color graded this way
Why not? If what you want is just to remove a color cast then it's just a matter of color balancing. Probably not a good idea as you said, and certainly not a job for madVR anyway.
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Old 2nd June 2019, 20:55   #56430  |  Link
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What they want is no small black bars at the top and bottom, losing image data off the sides. They already know how to get a proper image but they would rather lose some ot the image from the sides than have the remaining black bars.

This is why it cannot be done with madVR.
you can remove all blackbars with madVR like he said using blackbar detection by combining "if there are big black bars:" and zoom small black bars away
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Old 2nd June 2019, 21:10   #56431  |  Link
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you can remove all blackbars with madVR like he said using blackbar detection by combining "if there are big black bars:" and zoom small black bars away
Oh I understand now, with the visible screen area defined and zooming black bars away you get the sides cropped and no black bars. Works great! They can even set the screen area a bit smaller to account for the slightly too wide horizontal stretch.

I forgot that zoom big black bars away is willing to lose any amount of image area.
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Old 2nd June 2019, 21:14   #56432  |  Link
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and it can fail spectacularly not to say possibly increases render time massively.
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Old 2nd June 2019, 21:28   #56433  |  Link
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Why does it increase the rendering time?
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Old 2nd June 2019, 21:32   #56434  |  Link
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if you crop and zoom blackbar you need to upscale and depending on your settings it can melt your GPU.
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Old 2nd June 2019, 22:02   #56435  |  Link
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HDR Anomaly

I have been testing HDR on the latest build passing thru metadata. HDR mode kicks in perfectly, unfortunatley it gets stuck in HDR mode until I reboot the PC. Is this a known anomaly?
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Last edited by Village Guy; 2nd June 2019 at 22:06.
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Old 2nd June 2019, 22:30   #56436  |  Link
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
Could you list some examples of teal/orange movies?
All the movies in Nolan UHD set and upcoming Batman/Returns/Forever/&Robin UHD release. Harry Potter UHD releases. There are more, and Warner Bros is the worst offender.

Note that none of these movies had orange-teal grading originally - even in their BD releases. This is something the studio did *after the fact* for 4K releases to make things pop. But it looks awful, not to mention it is not Director's original intent.


Quote:
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...
Bottom line : no, I don't think you can "un-teal & un-orange" a movie that has been color graded this way
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Originally Posted by Alexkral View Post
Why not? If what you want is just to remove a color cast then it's just a matter of color balancing. Probably not a good idea as you said, and certainly not a job for madVR anyway.
Why not? MadVR is already doing a color correction when it does HDR->SDR. The reason I though about it is because how madshi is doing a hdr->sdr conversion, and there were many cases originally where color casts/shifts were there. I am not saying it is possible, but let's assume it is for a sec, I think I would want something filename based (a keyword in filename combined with an optional checkbox in madVR).
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Old 2nd June 2019, 22:41   #56437  |  Link
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Oh I understand now, with the visible screen area defined and zooming black bars away you get the sides cropped and no black bars. Works great! They can even set the screen area a bit smaller to account for the slightly too wide horizontal stretch.

I forgot that zoom big black bars away is willing to lose any amount of image area.
OK, so I got this to work for the most part, but I can't use NGU scaling anymore even on an RTX 2070 or GTX 1080 when using anamorphic lens option.

I am dealing with 4K tone-mapped video on a native 4K display, so processing starts to get really extreme when it has to upscale chroma and luma and do tone-mapping. Normally there is no luma upscaling because its 4K native on 4K. And when it's 1080p video there is no tone-mapping because its SDR.

It works if I set chroma and luma scaling to Lancosz AR for instance. But if I set chroma and luma to NGU sharp medium even it's like 80-100ms render times even on a 2070 or 1080.

There is no way to make this work without using the anamorphic stretch I'm guessing.

The whole zooming away black bars stuff is what makes it only work if I fill the 16:9 panel with the 2.40:1 video via anamorphic stretch factor 4 / 3.

I wish madVR just had a simple image cropping option that didnt require this zooming stuff and just took the picture as is, 1:1 on the screen, and allowed to cover the edges with a specific amount of black like some projectors allow.

Last edited by SirMaster; 2nd June 2019 at 23:38.
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Old 2nd June 2019, 23:02   #56438  |  Link
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
@garson,

is there a reason you're watching a 720p file ? is that just for testing ?

Scaling 720p to 1080p results in far worse quality and more gpu use than simply watching a 1080p file.
No reason to be honest. This is from my old collection of GoT episodes in 720p. Just used it for testing of upscaling performance.
I just tried now with EVR instead of MadVR and looks like file is just like that, small stutters in some scenes.

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Old 3rd June 2019, 00:13   #56439  |  Link
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Why not? MadVR is already doing a color correction when it does HDR->SDR. The reason I though about it is because how madshi is doing a hdr->sdr conversion, and there were many cases originally where color casts/shifts were there. I am not saying it is possible, but let's assume it is for a sec, I think I would want something filename based (a keyword in filename combined with an optional checkbox in madVR).
Can you post any screenshot to show how madVR's color correction for tone mapping is removing any SDR color cast? Actually what I often see is the opposite. Color correction for tone mapping is something mandatory, and it's not clear at all the best way of doing it. The aim of madVR is to reproduce the content in the most faithful way, I think what you're asking for could only be solved with an auto white balance feature which could potentially cause more harm than good.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 00:20   #56440  |  Link
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OK, so I got this to work for the most part, but I can't use NGU scaling anymore even on an RTX 2070 or GTX 1080 when using anamorphic lens option.

I am dealing with 4K tone-mapped video on a native 4K display, so processing starts to get really extreme when it has to upscale chroma and luma and do tone-mapping. Normally there is no luma upscaling because its 4K native on 4K.
Do not set NGU image upscaling at a ratio below 1.2, it is pointless on a scaling factor that small. Chroma scaling difficulty will be the same so no change there. Upscaling the 4K to 8K and then downscaling to nearly 4K is not helpful and very slow.

Can you do a blind test with an assistant? See if you notice an improvement from NGU upscaling compared to Jinc.
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