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Old 7th June 2015, 23:04   #30841  |  Link
edigee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ikarad View Post
Maybe in 353.06 this option is not available.
It's available. I'm on W7 64 with 353.06. My GTX 960 is connected via HDMI with an old LG L246WH and a 40' Philips full HD HDTV. On both displays I have that option(8/12bit, full/limited RGB/YCbCr). Of course only 8 bit option available for those displays(both are not 10 bit capable).
Althouth on other set up,GT 640 connected with DVI to a Samasung 23 SyncMaster 2333T that option is not available. Same driver.

Last edited by edigee; 7th June 2015 at 23:07.
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Old 7th June 2015, 23:16   #30842  |  Link
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Can we chill on the acronyms a bit? I get it, but it makes things stuttery to read and the search engine won't work

Last edited by JarrettH; 7th June 2015 at 23:21.
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Old 7th June 2015, 23:25   #30843  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
I've toned my preset down to medium for HQ content after seeing the high removing "a lot" of detail on LQ content.


For me Madshi's is more selective, as in it better preserves edged detail, more accurately I should say rough detail.
Where as Shiandow's blurs out more and ignores preservation of edges/rough detail. As in it removes more more easily, which is fine for LQ content where it softens the rough detail on gradients/textures.


Yeah Madshi's is more selective where it gets applied where as Shiandow's seems to get applied everywhere no matter how strong effect you set.

I use Madshi High + Shiandow 1.00/0.01+grain for LQ content (SD, DVD, ...).
480p preset:
Code:
if (deintFps > 31) or (srcWidth > 2100) or (srcHeight > 1200) "2160p"
else if (srcWidth > 1400) or (srcHeight >  800) "1080p"
else if (srcWidth >  800) or (srcHeight >  600)  "720p"
else                                             "480p"
I couldn't figure out a way to make the decisions based on area due to missing arithmetic, but if someone knows how let me know.

Shiandow 1.00/1.00 removes maximum but starts to also remove useful detail with large radius like facial features, so having the margin minimum ensures the removal is done only at small radius, at least that's how I see it.




Don't know why such a useful post-processing is suddenly removed soon after it was added.
I'm keeping v0.88.10 for sure.

As you can see above, Madshi's does pretty much nothing on rough LQ content even at High, but Shiandow serves nicely to "wash" the image, which true removes a bit of contrast but the rough detail is reduced as much as you like. As long as margin is minimal it's not that crazy with altering features of faces and objects.
your example screen only show the negative effect of both debanding algo at the same time.

not sure what you try to achieve there to my eyes you are simply removing as much details as possible.
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Old 7th June 2015, 23:28   #30844  |  Link
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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Some ppl will be using J3AR/CC AR LL coz they can, others will go cheaper and will need to increase sharpness afterwards. It makes no sense to me to be forced to enable a sharpening filter when you got the SR sharpness knob......if you somehow manage to make up your mind on presets, please also allow us to input our own settings be it via registry, a folder in mVR's folders or just a simple "expert settings" box.
i agree. i find it hard to find a setting that works well overall.

Quote:
I would also like to try SR on 1080p if any possible? I like how it sharpens motion blur. It would be great if it weren't tied to upscaling IMHO as it mostly acts as a "deshaker" if I got it right?
as far as i know it compares different upscales and sizes so i don't see a way to use it on a not scaled images.
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Old 8th June 2015, 00:11   #30845  |  Link
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I'm doing some testing with SuperRes on 288p low-quality videos.

First I wanted to see what difference the upscaling algorithm made with SuperRes. Jinc3+AR looks great. Bicubic still look good but slighly less. NEDI doubling + SuperRes, however, looks best!

Then, "High" quality makes blocking and artifacts more visible.

Interestingly enough, "NEDI defaults" at high (2 passes) looks nearly identical to "non-double defaults" at medium (3 passes)!

With NEDI, 1 pass @ "NEDI defaults" does look better than 1 pass @ "non-double defaults"

With NEDI + 1 pass @ "NEDI defaults", upscaling with Jinc3+AR gives a weird distortion... Bicubic actually does a better job here!

NEDI+Jinc looks more blurry than Jinc alone, but NEDI+Bicubic+SuperRes looks best.

With "NEDI defaults", instead of 2 passes, I can do 1 pass and increase strength from .65 to .75 and get almost the exact same result. Since SuperRes is expensive to run, you might want to do defaults for 1 passes.

Now... as to whether .65 or .75 is better is up for debate. .75 does make blocking and artifacts more visible... I'd opt for in-between, .70. I prefer this over the 2-passes default.

Activating LumaSharpen has a very subtle effect but it looks nice.

Activating FineSharp makes the artifacts stand out and makes the video look "cartoonish", I leave that off.

Overall, best setting is:
NEDI Doubling + Bicubic(75)+AR + SuperRes NEDI defaults but 1 pass strength .70 medium quality + LumaSharpen
Rendering time: 10.5ms for 288p on 768p

Second best setting is:
Jinc+AR + LumaSharpen
Rendering time: 9.7ms for 288p on 768p

Last edited by MysteryX; 24th June 2015 at 07:05.
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Old 8th June 2015, 00:29   #30846  |  Link
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Here are more tests on a 480p video on 768p display.

Here, NEDI is too expensive to run...

Option 1:
Bicubic(75)+AR + SuperRes defaults 2 passes
Rendering time: 14.4ms

Option 2:
Jinc+AR
Rendering time: 12.3ms

Results are VERY close... but Jinc+AR looks slightly more natural.

Conclusion: NEDI+Bicubic+SuperRes is a very powerful combination, but if you can't run NEDI, it's not worth trading Jinc for SuperRes.

Last edited by MysteryX; 24th June 2015 at 07:05.
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Old 8th June 2015, 00:49   #30847  |  Link
XMonarchY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
I've toned my preset down to medium for HQ content after seeing the high removing "a lot" of detail on LQ content.


For me Madshi's is more selective, as in it better preserves edged detail, more accurately I should say rough detail.
Where as Shiandow's blurs out more and ignores preservation of edges/rough detail. As in it removes more more easily, which is fine for LQ content where it softens the rough detail on gradients/textures.


Yeah Madshi's is more selective where it gets applied where as Shiandow's seems to get applied everywhere no matter how strong effect you set.

I use Madshi High + Shiandow 1.00/0.01+grain for LQ content (SD, DVD, ...).
480p preset:
Code:
if (deintFps > 31) or (srcWidth > 2100) or (srcHeight > 1200) "2160p"
else if (srcWidth > 1400) or (srcHeight >  800) "1080p"
else if (srcWidth >  800) or (srcHeight >  600)  "720p"
else                                             "480p"
I couldn't figure out a way to make the decisions based on area due to missing arithmetic, but if someone knows how let me know.

Shiandow 1.00/1.00 removes maximum but starts to also remove useful detail with large radius like facial features, so having the margin minimum ensures the removal is done only at small radius, at least that's how I see it.




Don't know why such a useful post-processing is suddenly removed soon after it was added.
I'm keeping v0.88.10 for sure.

As you can see above, Madshi's does pretty much nothing on rough LQ content even at High, but Shiandow serves nicely to "wash" the image, which true removes a bit of contrast but the rough detail is reduced as much as you like. As long as margin is minimal it's not that crazy with altering features of faces and objects.

LOL! That is exactly the same content I used to test Shiandow's debanding and all other madVR features as far as Low / Medium Quality content goes.

I disagree though. I sit about 8 feet away from my 40" 1080p HDTV and with my settings + 12bit color depth on my HDTV, the result is much better with madVR de-banding because it leaves enough detail to see the outline of black/dark parts of the image. For example, Captain/Major/Kernel Samantha Carter often wears black tops. With madVR's debanding set to Medium on top and High on bottom, I can see the outline of her boobies when she wears a black top, but with Shiandow's, her chest looks flat and un-sexish.

Sure that detail is quite LQ, but as long as you use the highest quality settings and sit reasonably far enough away, madVR's debanding does an excellent job.


Regarding new features. SuperRes is definitely here to stay! I figured that LumaSharpen for Upscaling does very little, but for Image Enhancement it does quite a lot at its default setting. The same exact content I talked about above (SMPTE 170M) looks a bit too sharp with default Image Enhancement LumaSharpen values. I decrease strength to 0.50 and clam to 0.30 and its much better!


You know, sometimes I wonder if madVR does too much when it tries to improve image quality. The original film image, when played with WMP without madVR rendering, using only LAV decoders looks sharper than madVR's image without LumaSharpen. However, vanilla image also has banding, artifacts, pixelation, etc. madVR HQ rendering settings fix all those vanilla issues and leave the image soft. Then LumaSharpen offsets the softness, but the end image looks both - 1. better IMO and 2. different from the original. The original/vanilla image sharpness looks more natural than madVR + LumaSharpen. I have not been able to restore that vanilla sharpness with any madVR settings.

I need to figure out how to create side by side comparisons shots using different madVR settings. Otherwise its hard to backup what I am saying...
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Old 8th June 2015, 01:02   #30848  |  Link
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Another test for 360p on 768p display...

Option 1:
Chroma Jinc+AR
Upscaling Jinc+AR
Refinement LumaSharpen
Rendering: 10.3ms

Options 2:
Chroma Bicubic(75)
Upscaling NEDI+Bicubic(75)+AR
Refinement LumaSharpen + SuperRes NEDI defaults 1 pass
At strength .70, it's very close but slightly better. I can get away with strength .75 and that definitely looks better.
Rendering: 11.9ms

Option 2 is just still slightly too demanding and I get dropped frames with SVP... so I'll have to stay with option 1. But otherwise, Option 2 would be better.

Last edited by MysteryX; 24th June 2015 at 07:05.
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Old 8th June 2015, 01:06   #30849  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XMonarchY View Post
...You know, sometimes I wonder if madVR does too much when it tries to improve image quality. The original film image, when played with WMP without madVR rendering, using only LAV decoders looks sharper than madVR's image without LumaSharpen.
If everything else is the same, which I doubt, you might just have found a bug, worth looking into. madVR only should do what you tell it to do and WMP playback sounds like DXVA, which in turn sounds like either your graphics card's settings come into play or you are not comparing the same settings. What happens if you compare with MPC-HC and you switch between EVR and madVR? Same result as you see with WMP vs. madVR?

Quote:
Originally Posted by XMonarchY View Post
I need to figure out how to create side by side comparisons shots using different madVR settings. Otherwise its hard to backup what I am saying...
Screenshots, lots of screenshots. You can compare them with StaxRip's image comparison tool for example, very helpful and fast.
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Old 8th June 2015, 01:13   #30850  |  Link
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Originally Posted by XMonarchY View Post
LOL! That is exactly the same content I used to test Shiandow's debanding and all other madVR features as far as Low / Medium Quality content goes.
why didn't you test a debanding filter on banding? for example the background has some.

Quote:
I disagree though. I sit about 8 feet away from my 40" 1080p HDTV and with my settings + 12bit color depth on my HDTV, the result is much better with madVR de-banding because it leaves enough detail to see the outline of black/dark parts of the image. For example, Captain/Major/Kernel Samantha Carter often wears black tops. With madVR's debanding set to Medium on top and High on bottom, I can see the outline of her boobies when she wears a black top, but with Shiandow's, her chest looks flat and un-sexish.
what banding are you planning on removing anyway?

the main feature of 10 bit output is less banding. but when i see how you talking about the use of a debanding filter i'm not sure if you even know what that is.

Quote:
Sure that detail is quite LQ, but as long as you use the highest quality settings and sit reasonably far enough away, madVR's debanding does an excellent job.

Quote:
Regarding new features. SuperRes is definitely here to stay! I figured that LumaSharpen for Upscaling does very little, but for Image Enhancement it does quite a lot at its default setting. The same exact content I talked about above (SMPTE 170M) looks a bit too sharp with default Image Enhancement LumaSharpen values. I decrease strength to 0.50 and clam to 0.30 and its much better!
this is a new feature i don't see any change it will be removed.
this is totally different with debanding a debanding filter was already there. so the question was which do more people like.

Quote:
You know, sometimes I wonder if madVR does too much when it tries to improve image quality. The original film image, when played with WMP without madVR rendering, using only LAV decoders looks sharper than madVR's image without LumaSharpen. However, vanilla image also has banding, artifacts, pixelation, etc. madVR HQ rendering settings fix all those vanilla issues and leave the image soft. Then LumaSharpen offsets the softness, but the end image looks both - 1. better IMO and 2. different from the original. The original/vanilla image sharpness looks more natural than madVR + LumaSharpen. I have not been able to restore that vanilla sharpness with any madVR settings.
first of all madVR does nothing unnecessary to the image and it outputting it as original as possible unlike crappy WMP.

WMP uses dxva so all the damaging algo from your GPU are altering the image which is just clearly bad.

Quote:
I need to figure out how to create side by side comparisons shots using different madVR settings. Otherwise its hard to backup what I am saying...
how about screenshoots?
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Old 8th June 2015, 01:47   #30851  |  Link
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And yes, superres seems to work extremely well on high-def videos. I feel like superres acts on a tiny radius (0.5) and successfully brings those details out.

Why does superres have multiple passes anyway? I don't understand the benefit

Last edited by JarrettH; 8th June 2015 at 01:55.
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Old 8th June 2015, 02:58   #30852  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by ikarad View Post
Maybe in 353.06 this option is not available.
because you can't choice 10 or 12 bit i don't see a huge need for this setting anyway.

nvidia will output 12 bit if possible with a 10 bit input signal if not it will dither the 10 bit input signal to 8 bit. except for forcing 8 bit output i don't see any benefits with this setting at all (if it even forces 8 bit at all.).

Quote:
Originally Posted by JarrettH View Post
And yes, superres seems to work extremely well on high-def videos. I feel like superres acts on a tiny radius (0.5) and successfully brings those details out.

Why does superres have multiple passes anyway? I don't understand the benefit
i don't like more than 1 pass maybe 2 passes it looks not good to my eyes. but it does a very good job with 1 pass.
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Old 8th June 2015, 04:11   #30853  |  Link
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Originally Posted by XMonarchY View Post
I need to figure out how to create side by side comparisons shots using different madVR settings. Otherwise its hard to backup what I am saying...
Print Screen and paste in Photoshop.

When you edit madVR settings, it instantly takes effect in the player so you can take a different screenshot right away without having to move to a different frame.

Ah! I just figured out that if I disable "fullscreen exclusive mode", I can take screenshots in fullscreen!

Last edited by MysteryX; 24th June 2015 at 07:04.
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Old 8th June 2015, 08:42   #30854  |  Link
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Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
I think there's still an issue with NNEDI3 image quadrupling on Nvidia, occasionally driver still gets stuck in slow P2 state (but without any visible corruption).
Question is if it is caused by madVR or by the 352.xx driver series (Windows 8.1 x64), which seems a bit unstable.
I'd need to find a completely reproducible scenario to provoke the unwanted bahvior, I guess...
350.12 driver worked for me, 352.86 and 353.06 started getting randomly(?) stuck on low power state. I've been using this as a band-aid to quickly restart the driver.

On a unrelated matter, the quality that SuperRes produces is absolutely ! I've been mostly testing it on 720p->1080p upscale with lanczos 3 AR w/ SR for chroma and image. My Geforce 840m can't handle NNEDI3 or NEDI without basically stripping all the other goodies out, but I can't say that I feel like I'm missing out.

If I would have to describe the picture it produces in one word, it would be calm. If you compare it to other sharpeners you can't really see the best side of it in screenshots. I don't know the right technical terms for describing the effect or lack of it. But I find the other sharpeners producing extremely annoying un-natural "digital" artifacts in motion, when the video is playing. SuperRes is mostly free of that, until you push the settings to completely over the top, oversharpened level.

On top of that, I also greatly enjoy the perceived 3d/pop-up-effect it produces on my brain.

-EDIT: These comments were made about 1 pass SR with medium quality. Don't have the processing power for hq or more passes. I don't really care for comparing image quality on screenshots. If I can't see the difference in motion, I don't bother with it.

Great job with these recent releases, Madshi!

Last edited by wiFFy; 8th June 2015 at 09:01. Reason: Typos to the max!
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Old 8th June 2015, 08:43   #30855  |  Link
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Is there a reason why I can't select Jinc for downscaling and am forced to use Spline? The option is there, but it's greyed out.
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Old 8th June 2015, 08:57   #30856  |  Link
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Is there a reason why I can't select Jinc for downscaling and am forced to use Spline? The option is there, but it's greyed out.
madVR does not support Jinc for downscaling for now, as I checked last time.
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Old 8th June 2015, 13:02   #30857  |  Link
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
because you can't choice 10 or 12 bit i don't see a huge need for this setting anyway.

nvidia will output 12 bit if possible with a 10 bit input signal if not it will dither the 10 bit input signal to 8 bit. except for forcing 8 bit output i don't see any benefits with this setting at all (if it even forces 8 bit at all.).


.
The problem is not if it's needing or not needing but why this option deosn't exist on my computer.
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Old 8th June 2015, 13:36   #30858  |  Link
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what's your GPU?
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Old 8th June 2015, 13:50   #30859  |  Link
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what's your gpu?
gtx780
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Old 8th June 2015, 14:12   #30860  |  Link
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NEDI is also nice enough to take care of chroma while it's at it so we got winning combos here IMHO. I haven't truly experimented with SR on chroma yet, though but last time I tried I didn't seem to like it.
Personally I don't see any changes when using more expensive chroma upscaling, nonetheless I set it to the same I use for image upscaling since it doesn't eat much power.

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Originally Posted by XMonarchY View Post
LOL! That is exactly the same content I used to test Shiandow's debanding and all other madVR features as far as Low / Medium Quality content goes.

I disagree though. I sit about 8 feet away from my 40" 1080p HDTV and with my settings + 12bit color depth on my HDTV, the result is much better with madVR de-banding because it leaves enough detail to see the outline of black/dark parts of the image. For example, Captain/Major/Kernel Samantha Carter often wears black tops. With madVR's debanding set to Medium on top and High on bottom, I can see the outline of her boobies when she wears a black top, but with Shiandow's, her chest looks flat and un-sexish.

Sure that detail is quite LQ, but as long as you use the highest quality settings and sit reasonably far enough away, madVR's debanding does an excellent job.


Regarding new features. SuperRes is definitely here to stay! I figured that LumaSharpen for Upscaling does very little, but for Image Enhancement it does quite a lot at its default setting. The same exact content I talked about above (SMPTE 170M) looks a bit too sharp with default Image Enhancement LumaSharpen values. I decrease strength to 0.50 and clam to 0.30 and its much better!


You know, sometimes I wonder if madVR does too much when it tries to improve image quality. The original film image, when played with WMP without madVR rendering, using only LAV decoders looks sharper than madVR's image without LumaSharpen. However, vanilla image also has banding, artifacts, pixelation, etc. madVR HQ rendering settings fix all those vanilla issues and leave the image soft. Then LumaSharpen offsets the softness, but the end image looks both - 1. better IMO and 2. different from the original. The original/vanilla image sharpness looks more natural than madVR + LumaSharpen. I have not been able to restore that vanilla sharpness with any madVR settings.

I need to figure out how to create side by side comparisons shots using different madVR settings. Otherwise its hard to backup what I am saying...
I'm pretty close (arm length) to a monitor, not TV, so I see all the harsh and rough there is because there simply isn't better quality available to play. cca 2.5x upscale is a lot and it makes all the "small" details on 480p look huge upscaled to 1080p especially after SuperRes (SR). Some of the image is even bad because the master was low quality as well, practically all effects scenes are low quality, it's how it was made, shot on film (S01-07) and effects added in LQ since the target was TV and DVD, not HD or FHD at the time.

Damn what TV has 12bit? That's pretty ridiculous considering above 6-8bit one can't really tell the difference without pixel peeping anyway.
Yeah Madhi's leaves more detail but in the case of this 480p content even High removes nearly nothing, literally, as the banding and rough parts have too high step/contrast to get caught for removal by Madhi's alg. Where as Shiandow doesn't use such strict selection and applies easily to everything. Sure it washes out some detail away, inevitable price for reducing the rough detail the small detail gets taken too, hence I add grain to so the rough parts that remain don't look as prominent compared to the rest that is "washed".

Tried the Lumasharpen values, lowered, SR first otherwise SR will mask the sharpen as it does mask lower Q upscale algorithms. Don't like Sharpen, SR is enough for me.

I'm not sure I even have WMP installed, but it's simple to switch to other renderers in MPC and see how the colors are interpreted differently, with madVR supposedly and IMHO interpreting them more correctly. And other renderers also use other tricks such as more vivid colors apart from them being shifted, maybe even some sharpen, who knows, depends on renderer selected. Sure hey it's watchable, most of us did use them before.

To me all madVR seems to do compared to EVR CP is properly represent colors and allows to use better scaling alg. Plus now the added features for debanding and sharpening. I don't get any softening of the image or something unless you count the better scaling as softening the image, or the added aggressive deband. Then sure that's normal for these alg. But by default there doesn't seem to be any added softening or some such, if I would select equal scaling alg. and disable extra features in madVR it would look the same as EVR CP except for the color. I have all performance options disabled in madVR.
I use LAV with DXVA2 native (dxva2n). Read for some old madVR that this wasn't supported but I don't see any difference when I switch to software (avcodec) and everything seems to work fine for any LAV decoder selected.

Post screenshots of the same frame in PNG or other lossless with lossless upload.
There is http://screenshotcomparison.com/ for mouse over but it's a little meh to use, I prefer to click, ctrl+tab etc. instead.

That's what I use:

EVR CP, makes colors vivid as always, whether it interprets the color space right I don't know but the vividness is bad enough already:

Highest Q madVR without deband and SR:

Highest Q madVR with only madshi deband, has almost no effect except a couple parts in background top right:


madVR to me looks sharper and less artifacted due to better scaling alg. even NNEDI3-16 is enough to get better/less antialiased edges at 2x or more upscale.
At equal alg. the sharpness would be equal. But with madVR one doesn't have to hunt for shaders and can simply add deband and SuperRes now.

No shaders used in any of the pics, I don't use shaders.
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