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Old 13th May 2015, 17:14   #29861  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogway View Post
The TV (a 2014 "H generation" Samsung so pretty widespread) turns automatically to 1080p60 mode to, as I said, reenable settings needed for 60p sources, like recorded TV programs, files played from USB, or HFR blurays or whatever, let's call this "Playback mode". In "PC mode" many settings are disabled and others behave distinctly (ie. sharpness setting is disabled at value 50 instead of 0). There's a third last mode if I got it right, "TV mode" for cable TV, etc, these 3 modes store TV settings independently (not exactly three but for simplicity let's assume this).

I just bought the TV 2 weeks ago, the first thing that happened when I plugged the HDMI was that my desktop was extending offscreen. There's a (known I guess) trick and it is to rename (or label IIRC) the HDMI input as PC. Only then I got my 1080 desktop within the TV limits, that is desktop matching the TV internal resolution without scaling, this is "PC mode". 1080p60 (as 1080p24) sends a different signal to the TV, the above mentioned "Playback mode", I can take pictures if you want but I doubt they could come useful at all. It does the expected thing if you write 1080p60 and your source is 60fps, but I didn't expect my display changing to 24p mode for 60fps sources when I only had 1080p24 in the box, that's why I asked for a profile group option for displays so I can enforce a display mode policy on 24p sources. The reason to play 60fps content in PC mode was to circumvent an issue where BFI option is shared on the TV side between both modes 24p and 60p, not being needed on the later.

If I simply play video files from the HTPC with the madvr display mode box empty everything is fine, so I guess if you don't know what signal to send for PC mode the best option should be a passthrough.
Which mode is your PC in when everything works as intended in 60Hz with PC Mode? Seemingly it's *not* 1080p60, or is it? Otherwise it wouldn't harm if madVR switched to 1080p60. So your GPU must be in a different state than 1080p60, when PC Mode is working?
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Old 13th May 2015, 17:18   #29862  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I could list the modes which are in the edit fields for display mode switching
Yes, this would be great.
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Old 13th May 2015, 17:19   #29863  |  Link
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So it did not change threw years... The only way to use "PC mode" with Samsung TV is through 60 (or 59) Hz, but no 50 or 24Hz.
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Old 13th May 2015, 17:20   #29864  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
you could also use the GPU control panel.
It's time consuming (to call Control Panel applet), and this way I won't get the original refresh rate back when the player will be closed.
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Old 13th May 2015, 17:27   #29865  |  Link
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@everyone with the D3D11 minimize / Aero Peak problem:
http://madshi.net/madVR885minimize.zip
Does this one fix the problem?
Yes, thanks. I generally use a 64 bit one, though, would be nice to check it as well.
Render queues are still not full in windowed mode.

Last edited by MS-DOS; 13th May 2015 at 17:34.
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Old 13th May 2015, 17:31   #29866  |  Link
James Freeman
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Originally Posted by MS-DOS View Post
Yes, thanks. I generally use a 64 bit one, though, would be nice to check it as well.
madshi replied "Later" to that request, I guess 0.88.6 is coming shortly.
Quote:
Render queues are still not full.
Same here, but I'm sure madshi will solve this one too.
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Old 13th May 2015, 17:32   #29867  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by pirlouy View Post
So it did not change threw years... The only way to use "PC mode" with Samsung TV is through 60 (or 59) Hz, but no 50 or 24Hz.
no one in the industry cares about this issue and nearly all people that buy a TV doesn't even know what chroma subsampling is.
this is not a samsung only problem nearly all TVs have this problem.
the big exception are 1080p sonys they can do 4:4:4 at all refresh rates and most advanced setting still work.

but this is getting terrible off topic.
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Old 13th May 2015, 17:33   #29868  |  Link
tobindac
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the TV is most likely dithering in this case.

i pretty much made sure this is the case with my TV. either my TV is 10 bit and that not the case... or it is dithering the 10 bit input.

i know a way to dither the 10 bit input from madVR to 8 bit using the AMD driver but this is pretty much pointless a direct 16 bit to 8 bit dither is better.
I soon found out after that post you replied to that the AMD driver dithers by default. It can be turned off in the registry.
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Old 13th May 2015, 17:59   #29869  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by tobindac View Post
I soon found out after that post you replied to that the AMD driver dithers by default. It can be turned off in the registry.
it's good that AMD dithers 10 bit input to 8 bit if it is outputting 8 bit.

i have this registry "hack" active at the moment that's how i find out if my display is dithering and 10 bit was inputted in my screen.

but if the GPU is outputting 10 bit is is not dithering to 8 bit so this registry "hack" shouldn't be used for normal viewing.
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Old 13th May 2015, 18:07   #29870  |  Link
vivan
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Btw, can we get dithering for every frame presented? With Dx11 path and "present every vsync" option that should beat any FRC.
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Old 13th May 2015, 18:21   #29871  |  Link
James Freeman
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Btw, can we get dithering for every frame presented? With Dx11 path and "present every vsync" option that should beat any FRC.
Would you be kind and elaborate a bit?
I think currently madVR changes the pattern every video frame, so when I slow down the video the dithering pattern is also slowed down along with the video.
You want to say that the dithering pattern should change every refresh of the display itself and NOT the video right?
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Old 13th May 2015, 18:23   #29872  |  Link
detmek
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Well, then I'm lost. Without being able to reproduce this, I don't know what to do about it. FWIW, I might get a Skylake laptop sooner or later, maybe I can reproduce it then.

One last thing you could test (just for information): Does the same problem occur when using the "use a separate device for presentation" with D3D9?
Yes, it does! When I check "use a separate device for presentation" with D3D9 I get exactly the same problem. Can it be fixed (if the cause is the same)?
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Old 13th May 2015, 18:27   #29873  |  Link
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I guess it's a known issue with Madvr 88.4 and 88.5 because I have an issue watching any movie with some random presention error and Renderer queue and all others are not full.

What is the differences between Font Renderer : Vector Text Renderer and Bitmap Text Renderer ?

For example the vector with madvr 88.4-88.5 works ok with the known renderer issues, but as soon I change to Bitmap I have drop in frame every couple time a new subtitles sync is shown.

Last edited by x7007; 13th May 2015 at 18:47.
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Old 13th May 2015, 18:46   #29874  |  Link
ibius
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Hi, my first post here in madVR thread.
madshi, thank you very much for this great piece of software, I love it, I love SM FRC on my 60Hz screen and I love all the other bells and whistles it gives me.
I'm sooo used to madVR now, can't use EVR(CP) anymore.

I like the (small) performance increase D3D11 presentation path provides on my system, and it also being the requirement for 10-bit output, looks like we/I will have to switch to D3D11 sooner or later, so I wanted to give you my feedback on it as well.
D3D9 works perfectly for me, D3D11 needs some work.

Issues with D3D11:
1. Going FSE is fine, but after first seek presentation glitches start piling up by the dozen every second during playback, enabling 'Present a frame for every v-sync' fixes it, but windowed FS mode works fine without. All queues apart from render queue (see below) are full at the time.
2. After going windowed FS or FSE, render queue is always only 3-5/8, other queues are full, and I get increased CPU usage, e.g. from ~7% to ~30% on my 3,6GHz Intel Core2Duo.
3. Sometimes after seeking/stopping playback video gets stuck in a loop, jumping between few frames.
4. Render times are better compared to D3D9, but present times are way worse, e.g. going from 0.12ms to 0.9x/1.xx ms in windowed mode, in windowed FS or FSE they are even higher (although only chroma is scaled).


Config:
latest nightly madVR, LAV, MPC-HC x64, GTX 550Ti (2 different stable Fermi-drivers tested) on 60Hz 8-bit Eizo, Win8.1 x64

Flush settings all set to 'Dont flush', except for 'after last render step' only when checking render times, never had tearing, dropped frames or presentation glitches (with D3D9).

'use a separate device for presentation' enabled, it gives me better render times.

windowed(FS) mode (new path), FSE only used to test D3D11.

SM FRC enabled, delay playback start/after seeking too enabled, ordered dithering, few of the default trade quality for performace options enabled, no new scaling refinements enabled (yet).

LAV Video set to defaults, using DXVA2-CBd decoder

Nvidia control panel set to defaults, including 'Application-controlled' for 'Max. pre-rendered frames'

Last edited by ibius; 13th May 2015 at 18:48.
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Old 13th May 2015, 19:05   #29875  |  Link
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I noticed that ordered dithering is a very noisy process. I found it fun lately to turn on 1bit output and see very obviously some algorithmic patterns. It appears not dithering at all gives the most "stable" unnoisy picture while error diffusion is more stable and 'random' is a total mess.

I'm surprised, but it appears no dithering at all is a viable choice.

Choices..
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Old 13th May 2015, 19:09   #29876  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by tobindac View Post
I noticed that ordered dithering is a very noisy process. I found it fun lately to turn on 1bit output and see very obviously some algorithmic patterns. It appears not dithering at all gives the most "stable" unnoisy picture while error diffusion is more stable and 'random' is a total mess.

I'm surprised, but it appears no dithering at all is a viable choice.

Choices..
if you like banding yes it is a viable choice.
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Old 13th May 2015, 19:12   #29877  |  Link
tobindac
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if you like banding yes it is a viable choice.
Spare me the passive aggressiveness. If the source is suitable, it may be better in some specific cases. I know banding makes it worse in some cases.

I wouldn't be surprised if various modern movies from good sources do not require dithering filters for a good viewing experience.

If that is achieved why not avoid the extra noise? The packaged result might be a better outcome.

Last edited by tobindac; 13th May 2015 at 19:17.
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Old 13th May 2015, 19:15   #29878  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
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Yes, dithering is the process of introducing noise to compensate for rounding errors. This helps average out the rounding errors either across the image or between frames (or both), and the noise is based on the actual error being compensated for, but it's still noise.

Last edited by Ver Greeneyes; 13th May 2015 at 19:20.
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Old 13th May 2015, 19:18   #29879  |  Link
tobindac
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Yes, dithering is the process of introducing noise to compensate for rounding errors. This helps average out the rounding errors either across the image or between frames (or both), and the noise is based on the actual error being compensated for, but it's still noise.
It reminds of antialiasing. It smooths the picture, yes. But at the end of the day it's even with the best algorithm a glorified version of "targeted blur".
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Old 13th May 2015, 19:23   #29880  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
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All the processing that madVR does (including the color space conversions and the chroma doubling that almost all material needs) introduces rounding errors, so just because the source is 'good' doesn't mean you don't need dithering. It might mean you don't need debanding, but that's a different matter.

But - sure, if the noise bothers you when madVR is set to the correct output bitdepth, turn it off. Or turn off "change dither for every frame", which will make it less effective but might make it less visible (except on very uniform surfaces that are displayed for a considerable length of time). But it does mean you'll get more of a rounding error on average, reducing color accuracy.
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