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Old 13th May 2015, 16:25   #29861  |  Link
aufkrawall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
So I'm somewhat torn now: With this PC game, chroma doubling helps, and also Jinc looks "different" to Catmull-Rom. So maybe I should put both chroma doubling and Jinc back in? But with a 4:2:0 source maybe there's no difference at all. However, "upscaling refinement" could result in sharpening the chroma channel so much that doubling after refinement might make a difference, once again. So maybe that's a good argument for putting it all back in? Opinions?
It's a very synthetic example, but it showed that with all the new sharpening possibilities, it'd be definitely nice if one could completely rely on a scaling algorithm that introduces is little aliasing as possible, and this applies only to Jinc (and NNEDI3).

Chroma doubling/quadrupling could be made accessible again. But since they are only useful in such rather synthetic cases, they don't need to be present where luma doubling/quadrupling options are, which are much more important. I think your initial explanation about users getting confused by it is still true.
However, I think "novice" users are confused by image doubling options in general anyway, so this isn't necessarily a real argument.
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Old 13th May 2015, 16:46   #29862  |  Link
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Do you have any sort of application/service running in the background which might be using/blocking the GPU? Try closing any such application/service, and maybe also your browser. Does that help in any way?
Han ! You're strong. :/
Indeed, it was GPU-Z.
I guess you don't need another log now. Sorry, I feel bad for not thinking about another application interfering. :/

I don't have any dropped frames/glitches now.
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Old 13th May 2015, 16:52   #29863  |  Link
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So what's the current consensus about panels that are fed 10bit without dithering and give smooth output? Are they truly 10bit or something uknown in the pipeline dithers it? Or we just don't know?
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Old 13th May 2015, 17:01   #29864  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by tobindac View Post
So what's the current consensus about panels that are fed 10bit without dithering and give smooth output? Are they truly 10bit or something uknown in the pipeline dithers it? Or we just don't know?
the TV is most likely dithering in this case.

i pretty much made sure this is the case with my TV. either my TV is 10 bit and that not the case... or it is dithering the 10 bit input.

i know a way to dither the 10 bit input from madVR to 8 bit using the AMD driver but this is pretty much pointless a direct 16 bit to 8 bit dither is better.
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Old 13th May 2015, 17:07   #29865  |  Link
James Freeman
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To add to what huhun said;
At 8bit+ it is impossible to see the dithering pattern so it's a guess game.
One thing is for sure, a single dithering stage at the end is always better than several along the way, but again, at 8+ bit depth it's a guess game.
It even can be that this whole discussion is pointless if no one can actually see anything...
If one does not know or 100% sure that the panel is true 10bit, it is better to stick to 8+dithering.

Others claim that FRC in displays actually looks smoother because it is not dependent on the video frame rate like madVR is.
8 or 10, always keep dithering ON in madVR.
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Last edited by James Freeman; 13th May 2015 at 17:14.
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Old 13th May 2015, 17:11   #29866  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by GCRaistlin View Post
madshi, can you please add the possibility to change the current device's refresh rate from the tray icon menu? Sometimes it's better to watch PAL videos at native 25 Hz, for example SopCast translations, sometimes not. It's easy to change playing speed in ReClock but not the refresh rate with madVR. So sometimes I have to uncheck "treat 25p movies as 24p" setting in madVR and then relauch the player - just to get the refresh rate I need now.
I'm not sure how much sense that makes. I mean I could list the modes which are in the edit fields for display mode switching. But should I list more modes than that? I could enumerate all modes the GPU supports. But then you could also use the GPU control panel.

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Originally Posted by detmek View Post
Hi. I tried all four versions and none of those fixes a problem. I used MPC-BE x86 Nightly for test.

I don't know if I mentioned before but I don't have dropped or delayed frames or glitches. Its just render queue is not full and frames are presented out of order.

The thing is, problem almost desapires if I turn of smooth motion or turn on FSE. It flickers just a 1-2 seconds. With FSE render queue goes full. And that is even with regular build. Without FSE and with Smooth Motion on it flickers all the time.
Well, then I'm lost. Without being able to reproduce this, I don't know what to do about it. FWIW, I might get a Skylake laptop sooner or later, maybe I can reproduce it then.

One last thing you could test (just for information): Does the same problem occur when using the "use a separate device for presentation" with D3D9?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pirlouy View Post
Han ! You're strong. :/
Indeed, it was GPU-Z.
I guess you don't need another log now. Sorry, I feel bad for not thinking about another application interfering. :/

I don't have any dropped frames/glitches now.
No probs.
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Old 13th May 2015, 17:12   #29867  |  Link
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The TV (a 2014 "H generation" Samsung so pretty widespread) turns automatically to 1080p60 mode to, as I said, reenable settings needed for 60p sources, like recorded TV programs, files played from USB, or HFR blurays or whatever, let's call this "Playback mode". In "PC mode" many settings are disabled and others behave distinctly (ie. sharpness setting is disabled at value 50 instead of 0). There's a third last mode if I got it right, "TV mode" for cable TV, etc, these 3 modes store TV settings independently (not exactly three but for simplicity let's assume this).

I just bought the TV 2 weeks ago, the first thing that happened when I plugged the HDMI was that my desktop was extending offscreen. There's a (known I guess) trick and it is to rename (or label IIRC) the HDMI input as PC. Only then I got my 1080 desktop within the TV limits, that is desktop matching the TV internal resolution without scaling, this is "PC mode". 1080p60 (as 1080p24) sends a different signal to the TV, the above mentioned "Playback mode", I can take pictures if you want but I doubt they could come useful at all. It does the expected thing if you write 1080p60 and your source is 60fps, but I didn't expect my display changing to 24p mode for 60fps sources when I only had 1080p24 in the box, that's why I asked for a profile group option for displays so I can enforce a display mode policy on only 24p sources. The reason to play 60fps content in PC mode was to circumvent an issue where BFI option is shared on the TV side between both modes 24p and 60p, not being needed on the later.

If I simply play video files from the HTPC with the madvr display mode box empty everything is fine, so I guess if you don't know what signal to send for PC mode the best option should be a passthrough.


edit: btw for some reason the statistics doesn't show chroma being upscaled with nnedi3, I have it set the same as luma (if > x2). It is instead using the upscaling settings in "upscale chroma", interestingly enough there's another NNEDI3 scaling option just below Jinc.

Last edited by Dogway; 13th May 2015 at 17:18.
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Old 13th May 2015, 17:14   #29868  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogway View Post
The TV (a 2014 "H generation" Samsung so pretty widespread) turns automatically to 1080p60 mode to, as I said, reenable settings needed for 60p sources, like recorded TV programs, files played from USB, or HFR blurays or whatever, let's call this "Playback mode". In "PC mode" many settings are disabled and others behave distinctly (ie. sharpness setting is disabled at value 50 instead of 0). There's a third last mode if I got it right, "TV mode" for cable TV, etc, these 3 modes store TV settings independently (not exactly three but for simplicity let's assume this).

I just bought the TV 2 weeks ago, the first thing that happened when I plugged the HDMI was that my desktop was extending offscreen. There's a (known I guess) trick and it is to rename (or label IIRC) the HDMI input as PC. Only then I got my 1080 desktop within the TV limits, that is desktop matching the TV internal resolution without scaling, this is "PC mode". 1080p60 (as 1080p24) sends a different signal to the TV, the above mentioned "Playback mode", I can take pictures if you want but I doubt they could come useful at all. It does the expected thing if you write 1080p60 and your source is 60fps, but I didn't expect my display changing to 24p mode for 60fps sources when I only had 1080p24 in the box, that's why I asked for a profile group option for displays so I can enforce a display mode policy on 24p sources. The reason to play 60fps content in PC mode was to circumvent an issue where BFI option is shared on the TV side between both modes 24p and 60p, not being needed on the later.

If I simply play video files from the HTPC with the madvr display mode box empty everything is fine, so I guess if you don't know what signal to send for PC mode the best option should be a passthrough.
Which mode is your PC in when everything works as intended in 60Hz with PC Mode? Seemingly it's *not* 1080p60, or is it? Otherwise it wouldn't harm if madVR switched to 1080p60. So your GPU must be in a different state than 1080p60, when PC Mode is working?
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Old 13th May 2015, 17:18   #29869  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I could list the modes which are in the edit fields for display mode switching
Yes, this would be great.
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Old 13th May 2015, 17:19   #29870  |  Link
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So it did not change threw years... The only way to use "PC mode" with Samsung TV is through 60 (or 59) Hz, but no 50 or 24Hz.
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Old 13th May 2015, 17:20   #29871  |  Link
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you could also use the GPU control panel.
It's time consuming (to call Control Panel applet), and this way I won't get the original refresh rate back when the player will be closed.
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Old 13th May 2015, 17:27   #29872  |  Link
MS-DOS
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
@everyone with the D3D11 minimize / Aero Peak problem:
http://madshi.net/madVR885minimize.zip
Does this one fix the problem?
Yes, thanks. I generally use a 64 bit one, though, would be nice to check it as well.
Render queues are still not full in windowed mode.

Last edited by MS-DOS; 13th May 2015 at 17:34.
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Old 13th May 2015, 17:31   #29873  |  Link
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Yes, thanks. I generally use a 64 bit one, though, would be nice to check it as well.
madshi replied "Later" to that request, I guess 0.88.6 is coming shortly.
Quote:
Render queues are still not full.
Same here, but I'm sure madshi will solve this one too.
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Old 13th May 2015, 17:32   #29874  |  Link
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So it did not change threw years... The only way to use "PC mode" with Samsung TV is through 60 (or 59) Hz, but no 50 or 24Hz.
no one in the industry cares about this issue and nearly all people that buy a TV doesn't even know what chroma subsampling is.
this is not a samsung only problem nearly all TVs have this problem.
the big exception are 1080p sonys they can do 4:4:4 at all refresh rates and most advanced setting still work.

but this is getting terrible off topic.
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Old 13th May 2015, 17:33   #29875  |  Link
tobindac
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the TV is most likely dithering in this case.

i pretty much made sure this is the case with my TV. either my TV is 10 bit and that not the case... or it is dithering the 10 bit input.

i know a way to dither the 10 bit input from madVR to 8 bit using the AMD driver but this is pretty much pointless a direct 16 bit to 8 bit dither is better.
I soon found out after that post you replied to that the AMD driver dithers by default. It can be turned off in the registry.
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Old 13th May 2015, 17:59   #29876  |  Link
huhn
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I soon found out after that post you replied to that the AMD driver dithers by default. It can be turned off in the registry.
it's good that AMD dithers 10 bit input to 8 bit if it is outputting 8 bit.

i have this registry "hack" active at the moment that's how i find out if my display is dithering and 10 bit was inputted in my screen.

but if the GPU is outputting 10 bit is is not dithering to 8 bit so this registry "hack" shouldn't be used for normal viewing.
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Old 13th May 2015, 18:07   #29877  |  Link
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Btw, can we get dithering for every frame presented? With Dx11 path and "present every vsync" option that should beat any FRC.
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Old 13th May 2015, 18:21   #29878  |  Link
James Freeman
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Btw, can we get dithering for every frame presented? With Dx11 path and "present every vsync" option that should beat any FRC.
Would you be kind and elaborate a bit?
I think currently madVR changes the pattern every video frame, so when I slow down the video the dithering pattern is also slowed down along with the video.
You want to say that the dithering pattern should change every refresh of the display itself and NOT the video right?
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Old 13th May 2015, 18:23   #29879  |  Link
detmek
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Well, then I'm lost. Without being able to reproduce this, I don't know what to do about it. FWIW, I might get a Skylake laptop sooner or later, maybe I can reproduce it then.

One last thing you could test (just for information): Does the same problem occur when using the "use a separate device for presentation" with D3D9?
Yes, it does! When I check "use a separate device for presentation" with D3D9 I get exactly the same problem. Can it be fixed (if the cause is the same)?
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Old 13th May 2015, 18:27   #29880  |  Link
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I guess it's a known issue with Madvr 88.4 and 88.5 because I have an issue watching any movie with some random presention error and Renderer queue and all others are not full.

What is the differences between Font Renderer : Vector Text Renderer and Bitmap Text Renderer ?

For example the vector with madvr 88.4-88.5 works ok with the known renderer issues, but as soon I change to Bitmap I have drop in frame every couple time a new subtitles sync is shown.

Last edited by x7007; 13th May 2015 at 18:47.
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