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Old 21st February 2010, 19:06   #2201  |  Link
cyberlolo
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Originally Posted by jmartinr View Post
I know, but it's still that value that's used for calculating the blackness level of the black bars in YV12.
Ok, I can give it a try, but where is that setting in ffdshow control panel?
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Old 21st February 2010, 19:44   #2202  |  Link
cyberbeing
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@TripleH

You should go for the 5670 instead since the HTPC feature of the 5570 aren't fully enabled and of lower quality. See:
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3738&p=3
*not that it really matters if you ONLY use madvr

Also it appears that you can actually buy a displayport wielding Sapphire 5670 for $90 which is virtually the same price as a 5570 ($85), which makes it a much better price/performance value and a nice little upgrade over your 4670.
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Old 21st February 2010, 20:00   #2203  |  Link
yesgrey
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Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post
Ok, I can give it a try, but where is that setting in ffdshow control panel?
Output->RGB Conversion
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Old 21st February 2010, 22:03   #2204  |  Link
cyberlolo
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Originally Posted by yesgrey3 View Post
Output->RGB Conversion
Doesn't work. We'll have to wait for the new version of cr3dlut...

Thank you anyway!
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Old 21st February 2010, 22:45   #2205  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post
Doesn't work. We'll have to wait for the new version of cr3dlut...

Thank you anyway!
Just retried to be sure.

Of course you have to resize to your displays aspect ratio in ffdshow (with "process aspect ratio internally" on) to generate black bars. Then after you've changed the "output-RGB Conversion-Input Levels" to full range, you have to restart the player. The updating of the black bars is a bit quirky. (You can adjust some aspects of the bars under "resize & aspect - Borders".
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Old 22nd February 2010, 12:30   #2206  |  Link
somy
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Originally Posted by Mark_A_W View Post
You adjust GAMMA at the source. You can adjust it in the ATi/Nvidia settings, by colour.

One day, I hope to do this adjustment using the madVR 3DLut.


And yes, I do care about wtw, which is one reason why I run full range and set my brightness on the display so that black is at 16ish (it's complex, the black level depends on the average picture level...).

(And the other reason to run full range unmolested 0-255 with Black at 16 and white at 235 is to avoid banding due to the evil levels expansion.)

I agree with you. However, with an ATI card, no matter which pixel format you choose, it will always compress RGB 0-255 to 16-235. The only way I solved this is to use YCrCb 4:4:4 output and overlay renderer. If you have a HD4000, this should do the trick for you, however if you use HD5000, there are problems with both YUC and RGB output:
YCrCb: yep, you get BTB and WTW, but the colour is wrong (ATI did RGB/YUC conversion producing wrong colour which is different from HD4000 YUC is output untouched IMO).
RGB: The luma is wrong, and it produces more banding than HD4000. The luma output is strange - 16-232 according to my measurment.
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Old 22nd February 2010, 12:31   #2207  |  Link
somy
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In short IMO:
HD4000 output YUC with no YUC/RGB conversion and luma resampling
HD5000 output YUC with WRONG YUC/RGB conversion and luma resampling looks ugly.
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Old 22nd February 2010, 18:33   #2208  |  Link
cyberlolo
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Originally Posted by somy View Post
I agree with you. However, with an ATI card, no matter which pixel format you choose, it will always compress RGB 0-255 to 16-235. The only way I solved this is to use YCrCb 4:4:4 output and overlay renderer. If you have a HD4000, this should do the trick for you, however if you use HD5000, there are problems with both YUC and RGB output:
YCrCb: yep, you get BTB and WTW, but the colour is wrong (ATI did RGB/YUC conversion producing wrong colour which is different from HD4000 YUC is output untouched IMO).
RGB: The luma is wrong, and it produces more banding than HD4000. The luma output is strange - 16-232 according to my measurment.
Nope, that's not correct. I have an ATI HD4850, I'm using Full RGB and I have BTB/WTW. And I had BTB/WTW when using YCrCb 4:2:2 too, so maybe it's an issue with your card.
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Old 22nd February 2010, 18:34   #2209  |  Link
cyberlolo
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FINALLY!!

Well, as yesgrey3 said, the ffdshow levels filter did the trick!
How? First to say, there's no need to change to TV Levels in madVR. I thought madVR clipped all values between 0-16 and 235-255 with PC Levels, but it doesn't! What it's really doing is adjusting brightness and contrast internally to not show 0-16 and 235-255 values, but really they're there. And I've realized that using the ffdshow levels filter.

The first time I tried it, it didn't work because I used the solution given by cyberbeing:

Input Values 16 255
Output Values 0 255

Using that values, it doesn't work. But if I set:

Input Values 0 255
Output Values 0 240

then the top white increases and the hidden white values over 235 are shown. (I used 240 as top value in levels filter as it gives me a real top white value at 248, as yesgrey3 adviced).

Yes, this solution it's not as good as doing it with cr3dlut, but while yesgrey3 releases his new version, I think I'm fine with this, as now I'm using the best renderer (madVR), having 0-16 as total black, preserving wtw up to 248, and having black top and bottom bars when needed...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmartinr View Post
Just retried to be sure.

Of course you have to resize to your displays aspect ratio in ffdshow (with "process aspect ratio internally" on) to generate black bars. Then after you've changed the "output-RGB Conversion-Input Levels" to full range, you have to restart the player. The updating of the black bars is a bit quirky. (You can adjust some aspects of the bars under "resize & aspect - Borders".
Yes, that also works indeed. But I still prefer the solution I wrote before, as with that I avoid using another extra filter (resize&border) that can affect the PQ.

Or do you people think it's better to set madVR to TV Levels and use ffdshow's Levels and Resize filters?
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Old 22nd February 2010, 19:08   #2210  |  Link
yesgrey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post
The first time I tried it, it didn't work because I used the solution given by cyberbeing:

Input Values 16 255
Output Values 0 255

Using that values, it doesn't work. But if I set:

Input Values 0 255
Output Values 0 240

then the top white increases and the hidden white values over 235 are shown. (I used 240 as top value in levels filter as it gives me a real top white value at 248, as yesgrey3 adviced).
I think you are still doing it wrong...
You should be setting Levels filter like this:
1) check the Full range box (when unchecked, Levels use only 16-235 input values)
2) Set input to 16 245
3) Set output to 0 255
4) Set madVR to TV levels

Let me know the result...
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Old 22nd February 2010, 19:38   #2211  |  Link
cyberlolo
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Originally Posted by yesgrey3 View Post
I think you are still doing it wrong...
You should be setting Levels filter like this:
1) check the Full range box (when unchecked, Levels use only 16-235 input values)
2) Set input to 16 245
3) Set output to 0 255
4) Set madVR to TV levels

Let me know the result...
Ok, with that settings I get a perfect 16-245 calibration image (0-16 are all total black and top white is at 245), but then the top and bottom bars are showed grey instead of black, just as I showed you in this post: http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...postcount=2186

I can fix that issue using the ffdshow's "Resize&Aspect" filter enabled, as jmartinr said, but then I don't know if that filter is messing with the PQ somehow. Do you know it? Here is the screenshot of how I have it configured:


Last edited by cyberlolo; 22nd February 2010 at 19:51.
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Old 22nd February 2010, 20:04   #2212  |  Link
yesgrey
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Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post
Ok, with that settings I get a perfect 16-245 calibration image (0-16 are all total black and top white is at 245), but then the top and bottom bars are showed grey instead of black
I've tested it and the black bars are black.
Please post a pic of your ffdshow Levels settings. Also, which media player are you using?
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Old 22nd February 2010, 21:58   #2213  |  Link
cyberlolo
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You were right, it was my mistake!

I'm using Media Player Classic - Home Cinema, but it wasn't a player problem, it was a filter order problem. On the external filters screen, if I place ffdshow video decoder in the first place, I have grey bars, but if I place the ffdshow video decoder in the third position (after CoreAVC decoder and directvobsub) or below that, then the bars are black!

So now I have madVR set to TV Levels (so there's no conversion), and using only ffdshow levels filter the way you told me (full range box checked, input set to 16 245, and output set to 0 255), I finally get what I want, (0-16 as total black, preserving wtw up to 245, and having black top and bottom bars when needed), BUT...

But now another problem has come in: banding. If I enable the ffdshow's levels filter, as I said, I have a correct 16-245 calibration, but I've lost smoothness in the greyramp. I mean, with levels filter disabled, the ramp goes from white to black quite smooth, but if I enable it, I can clearly see the vertical lines delimiting the growing bars. I think this can't be solved, as ffdshow's levels filter works in 8-bit depth, and that is causing banding. Am I right?

yesgrey3, as you can see, I'm a bit desperate with this problem... couldn't you release a beta version of your new cr3dlut that allows us to solve this issue without losing image quality?

Here is a screenshot with levels disabled:



And here with levels enabled:


Last edited by cyberlolo; 23rd February 2010 at 00:05.
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Old 23rd February 2010, 00:07   #2214  |  Link
Mark_A_W
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somy View Post
I agree with you. However, with an ATI card, no matter which pixel format you choose, it will always compress RGB 0-255 to 16-235. The only way I solved this is to use YCrCb 4:4:4 output and overlay renderer. If you have a HD4000, this should do the trick for you, however if you use HD5000, there are problems with both YUC and RGB output:
YCrCb: yep, you get BTB and WTW, but the colour is wrong (ATI did RGB/YUC conversion producing wrong colour which is different from HD4000 YUC is output untouched IMO).
RGB: The luma is wrong, and it produces more banding than HD4000. The luma output is strange - 16-232 according to my measurment.

Ummm, the answer to all that is to avoid HDMI like the plague.

If you use a non-ATI DVI to HDMI adapter I think you avoid all that rubbish, you certainly do if you run VGA.
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Old 23rd February 2010, 00:32   #2215  |  Link
yesgrey
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Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post
But now another problem has come in: banding.
Yes, you're right, I forgot about it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post
yesgrey3, as you can see, I'm a bit desperate with this problem... couldn't you release a beta version of your new cr3dlut that allows us to solve this issue without losing image quality?
It will take some time, because I have made several changes, and currently I don't have much time for looking at it...
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Old 23rd February 2010, 01:52   #2216  |  Link
cyberlolo
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Originally Posted by yesgrey3 View Post
Yes, you're right, I forgot about it...


It will take some time, because I have made several changes, and currently I don't have much time for looking at it...
Of course, take your time. Just asked if it was possible a sooner beta version, but if it's not, then we'll wait until you're able to release it.

Thanks for your help anyway. And please, if you think about any other way (not ffdshow's levels filter) to achieve what I'm trying to, please let me know.

Last edited by cyberlolo; 23rd February 2010 at 01:54.
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Old 23rd February 2010, 02:00   #2217  |  Link
yesgrey
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Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post
if you think about any other way (not ffdshow's levels filter) to achieve what I'm trying to, please let me know.
The other way would be converting to RGB with ffdshow, but then you would not be able to use madVR...
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Old 23rd February 2010, 11:21   #2218  |  Link
cyberlolo
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The other way would be converting to RGB with ffdshow, but then you would not be able to use madVR...
I know. Before using madVR, I was using evr-cp and I had 16-245, but I want to use madVR for it's higher PQ. So the solution, if exists, has to be using madVR.

How about setting madVR to TV Levels, and then use the ATI Catalyst brightness/contrast/gamma controls to output 16-245? I mean, not the Avivo Video controls, but the general ones. What do you think of this solution?

Last edited by cyberlolo; 23rd February 2010 at 11:26.
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Old 23rd February 2010, 12:26   #2219  |  Link
yesgrey
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Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post
How about setting madVR to TV Levels, and then use the ATI Catalyst brightness/contrast/gamma controls to output 16-245? I mean, not the Avivo Video controls, but the general ones. What do you think of this solution?
That might work, though the quality probably will not be very high...
I still think your better option would be the Levels filter. The banding should not be noticeable in movies...
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Old 23rd February 2010, 12:41   #2220  |  Link
somy
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Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post
Nope, that's not correct. I have an ATI HD4850, I'm using Full RGB and I have BTB/WTW. And I had BTB/WTW when using YCrCb 4:2:2 too, so maybe it's an issue with your card.
WTW/BTB doesn't show that you have 0-255 output without any luma conversion. It's definately possible to output WTW and BTB from your decoder and the graphics card compress them to 16-235
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