Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Capturing and Editing Video > New and alternative a/v containers

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 17th February 2019, 06:05   #23341  |  Link
Mevunky
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by raymondjpg View Post
I think you have a point, but in my system it only works if I configure Intel Display Audio in Windows as stereo. I can then get sound out of the center speaker as well as L and R. However, if I configure it as 5.1 surround then the signal received by the Yamaha is 3/2/0.1 even when the source is stereo PCM, and I hear no sound from the center speaker. I have seen this issue arise with other media players outputting HDMI sound through AV receivers. The receiver is expecting to receive signal from all channels, and does not apply Prologic II.
This makes sense, however I see no reason to set Windows to anything other than stereo mode, for proper surround everything is bitstreamed anyway. I have always set all machines to 2.0 as 99% of generic sound content is 2.0 which keeps everything in check and fixes your PL issues - as for the rest its bitstreamed and bypasses the shared mixer anyways. I personally see no upside in setting Windows to anything other than 2.0.
Mevunky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th February 2019, 06:29   #23342  |  Link
raymondjpg
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mevunky View Post
This makes sense, however I see no reason to set Windows to anything other than stereo mode, for proper surround everything is bitstreamed anyway. I have always set all machines to 2.0 as 99% of generic sound content is 2.0 which keeps everything in check and fixes your PL issues - as for the rest its bitstreamed and bypasses the shared mixer anyways. I personally see no upside in setting Windows to anything other than 2.0.
I'll certainly try setting Windows to stereo mode, but my priority is to try and work around loss of audio when using MPC-HC and display rate switching with madVR. Otherwise I'm limited to using PotPlayer.

The problem I see with setting to stereo is playing back multi-channel AAC. I haven't found an AV receiver yet that will decode AAC sound so the only option is to decode using LAV audio, ffdshow, or AC3 Filter and (if AC3Filter is set for transcoding PCM to AC3) transcoding on the fly. I don't know how Windows and the receiver would cope with multi-channel PCM, if Windows was set to stereo only mode and AC3 Filter (and/or ffdshow) was disabled.
raymondjpg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th February 2019, 07:55   #23343  |  Link
raymondjpg
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 89
I had another go at setting MPC-HC 1.8.4 as the external player in Emby Theater, this time with the Exclusive mode checkbox selected under Audio Renderer.

1. With audio output set to Default DirectSound Device, behaviour as before. Sound does not survive madVR refresh rate changing.

2. With audio output set to Internal Audio Renderer, sound does survive madVR refresh rate changing. However, it appears that AC3Filter's automatic association with post-processing MPC-HC sound is lost because stereo PCM (now received at the Yamaha receiver as stereo) was not transcoded to AC3. This would not matter too much if the only PCM we wanted to transcode was stereo. I think it might matter more if we wished to transcode multi-channel PCM.

3. Setting AC3 Filter as a preferred External Filter in MPC-HC, E-AC3 (at least) appeared to be decoded to PCM i.e. no longer bitstreaming as desired.

It may be that I have just not found the correct combination of settings. I may try again, but for now I have returned to PotPlayer and external LAV filters.

Edit: On closer scrutiny, it appears that AC3Filter's automatic association with post-processing MPC-HC sound is NOT lost when audio output set to Internal Audio Renderer, and after madVR refresh rate changing. However, the audio delivered to the AV receiver is PCM sound until video play is stopped then started again. Same with E-AC3. After madVR refresh rate changing, the audio delivered to the AV receiver is PCM sound until video play is stopped then started again.

This is not as bad as no audio after refresh rate changing, but I would still prefer to see the correct audio format delivered to the AV receiver after refresh rate changing.

Last edited by raymondjpg; 17th February 2019 at 08:27. Reason: Updated information
raymondjpg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th February 2019, 07:07   #23344  |  Link
Mevunky
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 10
I would look at avoiding multi-channel AAC content entirely? It is not a great way to do surround (hence why many receivers don't support it) this would go a long way to solving some of your problems.

Last edited by Mevunky; 18th February 2019 at 07:28.
Mevunky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th February 2019, 16:50   #23345  |  Link
el Filou
Registered User
 
el Filou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 391
Why is AAC "not a great way to do surround"? It's certainly higher quality/size than AC3, and fine if you don't use the features associated with Dolby metadata.
__________________
HTPC: W10 1803, E7400, 1050 Ti, DVB-C, Denon 2310, Panasonic GT60 | Desktop: W10 1809, 4690K, HD 7870, Dell U2713HM | MediaPortal 1/MPC-HC, LAV Filters, ReClock, madVR
el Filou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th February 2019, 23:57   #23346  |  Link
raymondjpg
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mevunky View Post
I would look at avoiding multi-channel AAC content entirely? It is not a great way to do surround (hence why many receivers don't support it) this would go a long way to solving some of your problems.
It's not so much a matter of avoiding multi-channel AAC content as coping with it when it does arise. I acknowledge I do not see many examples of multi-channel AAC content, and it is some time since I last saw one.

I don't know why people use it to code media. It may be because source TV material is multi-channel AAC (probably unlikely because there are no AV receivers available to decode it) or because there is an attempt to maximise compression to keep file size to a minimum. In my neck of the woods we only have stereo TV channels and the tendency is to broadcast AC3 on HD channels, although there is some AAC on SD channels. In the past (some time ago) there was experimentation with multi-channel but IIRC it was AC3 audio.

While AC3 Filter and ffdshow still work in Windows 10 my HTPCs can transcode PCM decoded from all AAC formats by LAV filters, and given that bitstreaming with external LAV filters doesn't work for me in Windows 10, directing AC3Filter to be used for AC3 and DTS, and specifying those formats for bitstreaming in AC3 Filter, overcomes that obstacle.

I'd be more concerned that AC3 Filter and ffdshow might cease to work in future builds of Windows 10. I have no basis for that concern, but neither application has seen any development since 2012.

Last edited by raymondjpg; 18th February 2019 at 23:59.
raymondjpg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th February 2019, 23:09   #23347  |  Link
arrgh
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 109
@raymondjpg
I use a lot AAC5.1 in mkv, because it gives indeed a lot quality/size... for me it is the "HEVC for Audio"...
unfortunately I can not find an AV receiver which can decode it (at least I found nothing confirmed; on top of it, some say that this can not work, since HDMI is not specified to work with AAC);
since my old receiver requires DTS or DD (PCM maxed at 2 CH), I'm in a catch...

luckily MPC-BE's internal Audiorenderer is able to transcode AAC5.1 to AC3 on the fly; even on my small machine I have no (detectable) delay (very likely at the price of some additional quality loss)...
in any case, I hope MPC-BE will not drop this feature !
arrgh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th February 2019, 23:23   #23348  |  Link
raymondjpg
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by arrgh View Post
luckily MPC-BE's internal Audiorenderer is able to transcode AAC5.1 to AC3 on the fly; even on my small machine I have no (detectable) delay (very likely at the price of some additional quality loss)...
in any case, I hope MPC-BE will not drop this feature !
I did not know that. I'll take another look at MPC-BE, but I've not been able so far to find a colour balance output from MPC-BE that I like the look of.
raymondjpg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th February 2019, 23:44   #23349  |  Link
Aleksoid1978
Registered User
 
Aleksoid1978's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Russia, Vladivostok
Posts: 2,111
Quote:
Originally Posted by arrgh View Post
luckily MPC-BE's internal Audiorenderer is able to transcode AAC5.1 to AC3 on the fly
Not Audio Renderer - Audio Decoder
__________________
I7 2600K@4.2 /Asrock P67 Extreme4 Gen 3 /Kingston HyperX 8Gb 1866 (4x2) Kit /OCZ Vertex 3 256Gb /Gigabyte GTX 960 /BenQ EW2430 /LG 47LM620T /Yamaha RX-V471 + NS-555 + NS-C444 + NS-333 + YST-SW215
Aleksoid1978 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th February 2019, 00:08   #23350  |  Link
arrgh
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleksoid1978 View Post
Not Audio Renderer - Audio Decoder
sorry, it's late...

@raymondjpg
at the moment my setup in MPC-BE is :
- external LAV-Splitter
- external LAV-Video-Decoder
- internal MPC-BE Audio-Decoder
- external subtitle renderer (I hope this time it's correct) XySubFilter
- external video renderer madVR
arrgh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th February 2019, 22:56   #23351  |  Link
raymondjpg
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by arrgh View Post
@raymondjpg
at the moment my setup in MPC-BE is :
- external LAV-Splitter
- external LAV-Video-Decoder
- internal MPC-BE Audio-Decoder
- external subtitle renderer (I hope this time it's correct) XySubFilter
- external video renderer madVR
That combination is working well for me, except I am quite happy to use the internal sbtitle renderer.

Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
raymondjpg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st February 2019, 18:08   #23352  |  Link
el Filou
Registered User
 
el Filou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 391
feature request only mix if less than 5 channels ?

@nevcairiel Would it be possible to add an option to the Mixing feature like 'only mix if less than 5 channels' ?

Explanation: I don't bitstream, and sometimes I encounter sources that need to be modified to output them in LPCM over my HDMI which only accepts 2.0, 5.1, and 7.1 (no idea if it's a limitation of the AVR, the HDMI standard, Windows, or NVIDIA ). Now, LAV has specific options to handle 1.0 > 2.0 and 6.1 > 7.1 and also an option to convert the rest to 5.1 by adding silent channels, but for cases like these:
- 4.0 L C R BC
- 4.0 L R SL SR
- 3.0 (or 3.1) L C R (LFE) (just encountered such a track on the Shin Godzilla Blu-ray which prompted me to ask)

-- so basically anything that is more than 2.0 but less than 5.0/5.1 -- I prefer to downmix them to 2.0 and then use PLII(x) in my receiver to upmix back rather than add silent channels because that doesn't sound as immersive.
An option 'only mix if less than 5 channels' would be great: LAV could then be configured to mix all those cases to 2.0 but not touch 5.1/6.1/7.1.

Thanks a lot if this sounds reasonable to you.

PS: maybe someone is going to answer that I could just enable mixing to 5.1/7.1 and check 'don't mix stereo sources', but I tried it and it doesn't apply PLII(x) decoding when doing that which I would like.
__________________
HTPC: W10 1803, E7400, 1050 Ti, DVB-C, Denon 2310, Panasonic GT60 | Desktop: W10 1809, 4690K, HD 7870, Dell U2713HM | MediaPortal 1/MPC-HC, LAV Filters, ReClock, madVR
el Filou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st February 2019, 20:34   #23353  |  Link
ryrynz
Registered User
 
ryrynz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,019
That sounds like a really great feature. Nice one.
ryrynz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st February 2019, 20:57   #23354  |  Link
nevcairiel
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hamburg/Germany
Posts: 9,606
I'm not sure I agree its that great. There is so many corner cases where I don't see how some algorithm to create surround can be better then keeping the surround sound.

For example:

Quote:
Originally Posted by el Filou View Post
- 4.0 L C R BC
All this is missing is a LFE, otherwise it could nicely fill a 5.1 if you map the back-center to the surround channel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by el Filou View Post
- 4.0 L R SL SR
This already has dedicated surround channel, but no center. A center is IMHO not that crucial if your speakers are setup for a proper stereo image.

Honestly outside of special cases like 2.1 or 3.0 which barely have any channel beyond stereo, I'm not sure I see it.
__________________
LAV Filters - open source ffmpeg based media splitter and decoders
nevcairiel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd February 2019, 03:37   #23355  |  Link
Sunspark
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 41
In my case, I have a challenge with downmixing. My system is a 2.1 which I've had a long time. It's a good one, and I can only hear in 1 ear anyway so I haven't felt the need for anything with more channels.

Windows is set to stereo, and it comes out of the 3.5mm jack to the subwoofer, which then feeds the satellites. The sub has its own % dial, and the satellites are the volume control. I leave windows set at 67% volume because the output is not digital, though the player itself internally is set for 100%.

The problem is, even with MPC-HC set to exclusive mode and LAV downmixing to stereo, source material using 6 channel E-AC3, specifically L R C LFE Ls Rs which gets downmixed to 2.0, I am finding that a lot of dialogue, etc is too quiet or it feels like it has flat spots in the audio. I attempt to compensate for it by turning normalize on in the MPC-HC audio switcher options to 400% which helps make speech louder.

I just wonder if there's something I should try differently or if this is something LAV could do differently. I know MPC-HC in the audio switcher has an option which I've never tried, "enable custom channel mapping" for a # of input channels and you can place checks for a dizzying variety of positions but the MPC-HC programmer wrote years ago that this function should not be used for downmixing, and to do the downmixing in the decoder..

I find that source material which originates as stereo has louder and clearer speech than the 6-channel downmix to 2.0 equivalent in LAV.

Not expecting anything, just wondering if anything can potentially be downmixed differently whether via a different filter or some other method. Thanks!
Sunspark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd February 2019, 08:22   #23356  |  Link
nevcairiel
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hamburg/Germany
Posts: 9,606
If you're using LAV to downmix to stereo, you can try increasing the center mix level, thats what usually contains the dialogue.
I would recommend 1.0 at first, and see how it sounds, and maybe a bit higher from there.
__________________
LAV Filters - open source ffmpeg based media splitter and decoders

Last edited by nevcairiel; 22nd February 2019 at 08:57.
nevcairiel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd February 2019, 09:46   #23357  |  Link
Siso
Registered User
 
Siso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Bulgaria
Posts: 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
If you're using LAV to downmix to stereo, you can try increasing the center mix level, thats what usually contains the dialogue.
I would recommend 1.0 at first, and see how it sounds, and maybe a bit higher from there.
What about LFE when downmixing to stereo, it is set to 0, should we increase it?
Siso is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd February 2019, 09:48   #23358  |  Link
nevcairiel
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hamburg/Germany
Posts: 9,606
Its personal preference, and depending on the frequency response of your stereo speakers.
__________________
LAV Filters - open source ffmpeg based media splitter and decoders
nevcairiel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd February 2019, 10:04   #23359  |  Link
Siso
Registered User
 
Siso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Bulgaria
Posts: 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Its personal preference, and depending on the frequency response of your stereo speakers.
I see, thank you.
Siso is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd February 2019, 16:30   #23360  |  Link
el Filou
Registered User
 
el Filou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 391
Ah yes, I understand that it would only be useful for a limited number of quite rare sources. No worries, I can still enable mixing manually of course.
Just one question about your advice:
Quote:
- 4.0 L C R BC
All this is missing is a LFE, otherwise it could nicely fill a 5.1 if you map the back-center to the surround channel.
Would it be such a good idea in practice to do that? I feel like it would create a weird surround effect (my system is actually 6.1 btw). Or am I missing some information here and a 4.0 layout like this was actually meant to be reproduced on 2 or 3 surround speakers and not just a single back center? IIRC this was the popular surround layout before digital discrete 5.1 (I only ever see such tracks on DVDs of 80s movies whose original audio wasn't remastered), and I have no idea how they were doing things.

I need to make some multichannel wav files manually and compare PLII downmix with silent channels when I have the time one day.
__________________
HTPC: W10 1803, E7400, 1050 Ti, DVB-C, Denon 2310, Panasonic GT60 | Desktop: W10 1809, 4690K, HD 7870, Dell U2713HM | MediaPortal 1/MPC-HC, LAV Filters, ReClock, madVR
el Filou is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
decoders, directshow, filters, splitter

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 13:37.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.