madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[neb1236]

Originally Posted by madshi

That happens when you start your media player on the primary *and* load the video on the primary and only afterwards move the media player to the secondary monitor. Try loading the video file on the secondary monitor, that should fix it.

Indeed yes, thank you, but well since I often move my player around, I will stick with windowed mode due to my other remark until things change.

I might Have a small things to say, I do perceive non-fluidness on some video; Anime source (progressive), in travelling moment, but this is not the cause of the Renderer, but due to the combination of the screen (LCD) and low framerate (24, yes it is low! Anime source don’t use motion blur that is naturally present in non-anime footage)
Since I have two screens I can perfectly compare it with cloning.
Old screen seems smoother than the new one (definitely!)
Same result by using my other laptop and testing both screens one by one.

I'm just saying that so people don't confuse thing, using LCD designed for games or standard office use won't be good.
New screen have very low respond time that will increases the effect, the only solution is doubling framerate by blending next and previous frames (The opposite of Overdrive, sort of), there is a great benefit from it (I used ffdshow filter), but cumulated on 1080p + vsfilter such thing is barely possible even on recent computers. And let’s not talk about advance things like motion morphing, maybe in a couple of years. Maybe bringing back an old request for having this implemented in the renderer... Like madVR... Maybe...

[madshi]

Originally Posted by mark0077

will it be configurable like can users decide whether to use 24hz or 48hz for example for a 24fps movie...

I'm not ready to talk about that yet.

Originally Posted by TinTime

I launch all my videos via a batch script that changes the refresh rate and then launches the player. The refresh rate is set according to the framerate of the source file. However if my source file is named "film 25to24.mkv" then my script would set the refresh rate to 24Hz despite the source being 25fps. Then Reclock can handle the slowdown. If madVR overrides this then my display would be set to the wrong refresh rate.

Does Reclock not change the media type to reflect the modified frame rate? Anyway, don't worry, we'll find a solution...

Originally Posted by neb1236

Maybe bringing back an old request for having this implemented in the renderer... Like madVR... Maybe...

As I've always said: I don't think so.

[TinTime]

Originally Posted by madshi

Does Reclock not change the media type to reflect the modified frame rate?

That's well outside my level of expertise so it's safe to say I don't know

If it's any help madVR's OSD reports "movie 25.000 fps (says source filter)" even when the video is slowed down to 24fps.

Originally Posted by madshi

Anyway, don't worry, we'll find a solution...

If you've got other ideas I'm more than happy to use your solution.

[leeperry]

Originally Posted by madshi

GDI knows the resolution, but not the refresh rate.

Oh? because Reclock does seem to get the refresh rate info from GDI...isn't it linked w/ DirectDraw somehow?

You can see this kind of infos in Reclock reg under HKCU\Software\ReClock\GdiTimings\:

It can also retrieve them from pstrip if it's running.

Originally Posted by madshi

I was talking about video rendering. Let ReClock do its audio related stuff like kernel streaming and resampling etc, that's fine with me. But ReClock should not try to "help" madVR with video rendering. That's none of ReClock's business. And I consider GPU refresh rates to be part of video rendering.

To be honest, as long as you don't enable VSYNC Correction *in* Reclock, it doesn't try to influence the VR AFAIK. It's only measuring the refresh rate to resample the audio accordingly. The major problem w/ Reclock is that it's an unstoppable train, it doesn't give a damn about the VR...it's got high standards when it comes to timestamps, and most VR's fail achieving them after a while. The reason why so many ppl resorted to D3D exclusive EVR, because the hardware VSYNC control is far more accurate than in windowed mode from my understanding.

The major issue and the reason why automatic refresh rate switching cannot work is that:
-some 25fps content needs to be displayed in a 25Hz multiple if it's genuine PAL, but you will need to slow down to 24Hz if it's sped up Film material
-I use 89.91/96/100Hz on the CRT, but 48/50/59.94 on the DLP pj...so it would also require different settings depending on the display, please be so kind as to still allow a manual mode.

Originally Posted by madshi

Well, I'm not really sure if any active communication between Reclock and madVR is necessary. Right now I don't really see a need for that.

Me neither, everything works like a charm so far here.

Originally Posted by madshi

What do you mean with that? Seeking seems to work just fine for everybody else?

He prolly wants to drag the seeking locator.

[madshi]

Originally Posted by TinTime

If it's any help madVR's OSD reports "movie 25.000 fps (says source filter)" even when the video is slowed down to 24fps.

Well, that's not so good.

Originally Posted by leeperry

Oh? because Reclock does seem to get the refresh rate info from GDI...

Anyway, as you can see in the madVR OSD, madVR is able to detect the refresh rate very reliably. But that's the "real" refresh rate, not the one which is needed to activate a GPU output mode. Anyway, this is too technical, and discussing this in the forum doesn't really help anybody.

Originally Posted by leeperry

He prolly wants to drag the seeking locator.

Ok, that doesn't work, and I don't plan to implement that...

[leeperry]

Originally Posted by madshi

Anyway, as you can see in the madVR OSD, madVR is able to detect the refresh rate very reliably. But that's the "real" refresh rate, not the one which is needed to activate a GPU output mode. Anyway, this is too technical, and discussing this in the forum doesn't really help anybody.

Reclock does 2 things when it's initialized:
-ask GDI/pstrip what time it is, instead of reinventing the wheel and measure the refresh rate/resolution "by hand"
-check whether any adaptation is possible, and if so do its work

James first started to ask Pstrip, and then decided to allow asking GDI for the non-pstrip ppl.

AFAIK the data I just showed comes straight from GDI(it shows 48/60/90/100Hz, it's not "measured")...anyway, you're the coder...I'm just repeating what I see and read from James discussions.

Originally Posted by madshi

Well, that's not so good.

why not? you get the graph filter infos, all my movies in 96Hz show 96.00000xx Hz and 23.976fps in mVR's OSD

[Grmpf]

Okay i finally got a little bit of time to play with the new exclusive mode. Here are my findings with this system:

Intel Q9550 + ATi4770 + JVC DLA HD100
Windows XP SP3 + CCC10.6 + PowerStrip (latest) + ZoomPlayer (latest non beta) + ReClock (latest) + coreAVC/ffdshow + madVR 0.25

a) If i start Zoomplayer in Fullscreen and then open a file i first get this:



and if i ALT+Enter (=Fullscreen) i get this:



I can change Windowed to Fullscreen mode as often as i want i always get this result. The "Playback -> Video -> Video Renderer Settings -> Overlay covers entire video area" Option is enabled btw.

If i start ZP and go to windowed mode and *then* load a file everything works well and first i get the normal windowed mode and later i can change to fullscreen exclusive mode (takes a quarter of a second or less btw). Its just that i can not load anything if i am in fullscreen mode already.

b) If i got exclusive mode runing i can not change the aspect ratio... if i do ZP completly hangs and i have to kill it via taskmanager.

I am using 2 custom AR presets atm (i am using a ISCO lens, thats why):




c) I am using some custom Powerstrip resolutions with very special timings to eleminate the drift between video and audio clock, this only works with exactly the right timings. I am talking about front porches/back porches/etc. to adjust the hz close enough to make this work. So if madVR just adjusts the timing to standard windows timings i will get drops/repeats of audiopakets again, or have reclock let resample everything - i do not want that...

Here is a quick screenshot of my 50.000hz timings and how they differ in just a few points (23.976/24.000/59.940 timings work the same way):

Normal Windows/CCC timings:


My special timings for my system:


Here is the description (beware german) how and why this is working and there is a little tool, from the author of eventghost, too to get the right timings (if you use powerstrip).

Ohhh and madshi i want to thank you very much for all the effort and time you spend to make us unknown strangers using HTPCs a little (hm i should say a LOT) happier - Thanks !

[Mark_A_W]

Originally Posted by madshi

Fix for ZoomPlayer not going into fullscreen exclusive mode:

Activate the option "Playback -> Video -> Video Renderer Settings -> Overlay covers entire video area".

Works for me.

[Mark_A_W]

Originally Posted by leeperry

Oh? because Reclock does seem to get the refresh rate info from GDI...isn't it linked w/ DirectDraw somehow?

You can see this kind of infos in Reclock reg under HKCU\Software\ReClock\GdiTimings\:

It can also retrieve them from pstrip if it's running.

To be honest, as long as you don't enable VSYNC Correction *in* Reclock, it doesn't try to influence the VR AFAIK. It's only measuring the refresh rate to resample the audio accordingly. The major problem w/ Reclock is that it's an unstoppable train, it doesn't give a damn about the VR...it's got high standards when it comes to timestamps, and most VR's fail achieving them after a while. The reason why so many ppl resorted to D3D exclusive EVR, because the hardware VSYNC control is far more accurate than in windowed mode from my understanding.

The major issue and the reason why automatic refresh rate switching cannot work is that:
-some 25fps content needs to be displayed in a 25Hz multiple if it's genuine PAL, but you will need to slow down to 24Hz if it's sped up Film material
-I use 89.91/96/100Hz on the CRT, but 48/50/59.94 on the DLP pj...so it would also require different settings depending on the display, please be so kind as to still allow a manual mode.

Me neither, everything works like a charm so far here.

He prolly wants to drag the seeking locator.

Hmm...I think active communication between Reclock and madVR could be really useful - but maybe it's not the best way.

What I want to achieve is this:

Assume madVR exclusive does give perfect playback. Therefore Reclock resampling when rates match is not required (perhaps fixed upsampling, but not the dynamic resampling to get smooth playback).

I'd like Reclock to "turn off" it's active part in this case. (This would also suit those obsessed with bitstreaming).

But for 25p material, I'd like Reclock to turn back on and resample it to 24p. I'm ok with this, I don't watch TV shows with my ZP/madVR/Reclock setup, it's for movies only on the projector.

But Leeperry would not like this to be so locked in.


Perhaps this is a Reclock request, but what I'm trying to get at is I don't want madVR and Reclock to "fight each other", and I don't want Reclock to resample if it doesn't need to.


And at this stage, I'd like a recommendation for using madVR with Reclock - even if it's only to standardise things for your testing.
If we use Reclock, should we have it set to "slave" and "original speed" "locked"?


Thanks

Mark

PS. Anything you can do about exclusive on an interlaced res would be much appreciated. But I do realise that I am the only one active in this thread with an interlaced res.

[leeperry]

Having Reclock doing fixed resampling or following the refresh rate won't make much of an audible difference AFAIK. Some ppl report success when using Reclock w/o resampling(bitstream/RME and Lynx users), you can easily use Reclock w/o resampling...just be prepared for possible "catch up" audio glitches once in a while, and no more adaptation whatsoever(the GPU 27MHz PLL is quite jittery IMHO). Anyway, it's possible. Going bit-perfect and then all of a sudden resample will glitch up, as a minimum of 75ms buffering is required.

Well, I've got some native PAL and some sped up cinema content...unlike BT.601/709, this cannot be automated. I've got DisplayChanger batches in my start menu, this is perfect.

If you can make the automatic mode optional like in Reclock(using its .vbs script), everyone will be happy...which is all that truly matters

I thought Reclock would need to talk to the VR so skipping wouldn't crap out like it always has in the past!!! but the latest mVR builds have put an end to this most annoying problem and never miss the VSYNC fliptime anymore IME, just like Beliyaal's EVR CP. If there's no way to detect the refresh rate on XP for exclusive mode switching, then mVR already has everything I need at this point. Well, except for PS gamut mapping, but I'm doomed to be eternally dissatisfied anyway(j/k )

[6233638]

Originally Posted by madshi

I've done some checks and I can confirm banding on my HTPC if I use one of the resolutions in the nVidia control panel's "SD/HD" section. If I use a custom resolution or a "PC" resolution, the banding is gone. It seems to me that when using an SD/HD resolution, the nVidia driver is doing violence to the madVR rendered video. So my suggestion would be to create custom resolutions for all the refresh rates you're using. That should take care of the banding problem.

Nvidia will be compressing the levels from 256 levels to 220 when outputting "SD/HD" which will introduce banding.

The smallramp.ytp test pattern is great for testing displays because there's no banding on a high quality device like a CRT. Everything else I have tried it on has banding.

Originally Posted by madshi

What do you mean with that? Seeking seems to work just fine for everybody else?

I can't grab the progress bar and scrub through a video when looking for something specific, I need to keep clicking on different points in the timeline.

Originally Posted by madshi

I don't think that deep color will make much of a difference, if any at all. I will probably still try to implement it sooner or later, but it's not a top priority for me.

There should be less dithering required and the image quality will hold up to further processing better. All digital displays must reprocess the image to display it. (white balance, gamma, gamut adjustments..)

[Hypernova]

Originally Posted by madshi

(5) Currently madVR only supports windowed mode, which is not ideal for smooth motion playback. Fullscreen exclusive mode will be added in a future version which should allow nearly perfect smooth motion playback.

You might want to update this madshi

Also, may I suggest an option so that madVR won't go out of exclusive mode unless the player going off fullscreen? I love the current behavior, but someone may want nothing interupting the video (eg. various noticfication). It would be best if you could somehow differentiate between the player trying to show a UI and any other application/process though.

[odie5533]

I am using a PC monitor with MPC-HC, CoreAVC, and madVR, generally playing x264 encoded videos but also DVDs through ffdshow. CoreAVC has settings for input and output levels (TV or PC for both) and output format (YV12, etc), and madVR has the output settings to choose levels too (TV/PC). I am wondering, what should I set each of these to? And in ffdshow, what options should be set for Output? Thanks!

[watchman]

Originally Posted by madshi

banding problems
I've done some checks and I can confirm banding on my HTPC if I use one of the resolutions in the nVidia control panel's "SD/HD" section. If I use a custom resolution or a "PC" resolution, the banding is gone. It seems to me that when using an SD/HD resolution, the nVidia driver is doing violence to the madVR rendered video. So my suggestion would be to create custom resolutions for all the refresh rates you're using. That should take care of the banding problem.

Ok, I tried to create custom resolutions and i can confirm that banding is gone. Picture with madVR is now as good as expected.

When i was testing, i tried to change a lot of settings in nVidia control panel, but never thought that they are hiding some options behind our backs in resolution table.

[Luv]

Fix for ZoomPlayer not going into fullscreen exclusive mode:

Activate the option "Playback -> Video -> Video Renderer Settings -> Overlay covers entire video area"

Indeed! madvr 0.25 is a milestone,fellows.Now fully functional on my rig (And switch WM<->FSEM is immediate,I can loose 2-3 frames and that's all)

Just two tiny cosmetic OSD considerations:
-dvds and only dvds :still the "unknow movie fps"
-still can't see the "Seek bar",and it's checked.Update :works fine.Go to FSEM,move the mouse to make the ZP bar appear,and the seek bar follows immediately.Leave the ZP bar disappear and the seek bar remains (If checked in madVR settings).Does not work for dvds.

PS:

sorry,just one other thing: is it fine if the rendering time ms value gets very close to vsync value ?

[namaiki]

Originally Posted by odie5533

has settings for input and output levels (TV or PC for both) and output format (YV12, etc), and madVR has the output settings to choose levels too (TV/PC).

In CoreAVC, have both options set to TV or there will be banding. In madVR, you would generally have the option set to PC. Have the YV12 option selected.

Originally Posted by odie5533

And in ffdshow, what options should be set for Output? Thanks!

You can set whatever you want as long as YV12 is also selected.

[madshi]

Originally Posted by Grmpf

a) If i start Zoomplayer in Fullscreen and then open a file i first get this [...]

If i start ZP and go to windowed mode and *then* load a file everything works well and first i get the normal windowed mode and later i can change to fullscreen exclusive mode (takes a quarter of a second or less btw). Its just that i can not load anything if i am in fullscreen mode already.

Yes, I'm aware of the issue. Funny thing is that madVR behaves no different in both cases. So it seems that ZP behaves differently if you load the video in fullscreen mode. I'll try to fix that problem, but I'm not sure if I can. It's possible that Blight might have to change something. But don't contact him about that just yet. Let me first try to fix it in madVR.

Originally Posted by Grmpf

c) I am using some custom Powerstrip resolutions with very special timings to eleminate the drift between video and audio clock, this only works with exactly the right timings. I am talking about front porches/back porches/etc. to adjust the hz close enough to make this work. So if madVR just adjusts the timing to standard windows timings i will get drops/repeats of audiopakets again, or have reclock let resample everything - i do not want that...

JFMI: Why do you use Powerstrip instead of defining custom timings? With nVidia at least you should be able to define a custom output mode which exactly matches your Powerstrip timings. Not sure if it's possible with ATI, though.

Originally Posted by Mark_A_W

What I want to achieve is this:

Assume madVR exclusive does give perfect playback. Therefore Reclock resampling when rates match is not required (perhaps fixed upsampling, but not the dynamic resampling to get smooth playback).

I'd like Reclock to "turn off" it's active part in this case. (This would also suit those obsessed with bitstreaming).

But for 25p material, I'd like Reclock to turn back on and resample it to 24p. I'm ok with this, I don't watch TV shows with my ZP/madVR/Reclock setup, it's for movies only on the projector.

Exclusive vs. windowed mode does not matter much here. If madVR does not need any help in exclusive mode, then Reclock can't help in windowed mode, either.

What might be a useful feature is to have Reclock disable its resampling as long as you don't change the movie framerate (e.g. 25 -> 24). But that's a Reclock specific feature, without needing any information from (or communication with) madVR.

Originally Posted by Mark_A_W

And at this stage, I'd like a recommendation for using madVR with Reclock - even if it's only to standardise things for your testing.
If we use Reclock, should we have it set to "slave" and "original speed" "locked"?

IMHO, every HTPC user should try to get audio and video clocks as near as possible. If you manage to do that well enough, madVR should be able to breeze through a movie with 0 delayed or dropped frames (at least in exclusive mode, and if your GPU is fast enough). So Reclock resampling would only be needed when changing movie framerate.

If, however, you can't get clocks matched well enough, then probably Reclock's resampling still make sense for every movie.

Originally Posted by Mark_A_W

PS. Anything you can do about exclusive on an interlaced res would be much appreciated. But I do realise that I am the only one active in this thread with an interlaced res.

Let's talk about this later when I implement support for automatic refresh rate changes etc...

Originally Posted by leeperry

the latest mVR builds have put an end to this most annoying problem and never miss the VSYNC fliptime anymore IME

@Jong, do you hear that?

Originally Posted by 6233638

Nvidia will be compressing the levels from 256 levels to 220 when outputting "SD/HD" which will introduce banding.

Yeah, shame on them.

Originally Posted by 6233638

I can't grab the progress bar and scrub through a video when looking for something specific, I need to keep clicking on different points in the timeline.

Yeah, I don't plan to support dragging right now.

Originally Posted by 6233638

image quality will hold up to further processing better.

Ok, that is a fair agument.

Originally Posted by Hypernova

Also, may I suggest an option so that madVR won't go out of exclusive mode unless the player going off fullscreen? I love the current behavior, but someone may want nothing interupting the video (eg. various noticfication). It would be best if you could somehow differentiate between the player trying to show a UI and any other application/process though.

As said before, if another window is covering madVR, there would probably be flickering, if I don't go out of exclusive mode.

Originally Posted by watchman

Ok, I tried to create custom resolutions and i can confirm that banding is gone. Picture with madVR is now as good as expected.

Glad to hear that! Now let us just hope that nVidia won't "fix" this in a future driver version, so that we get the benefit of added banding with custom resolutions, too...

Originally Posted by Luv

-dvds and only dvds :still the "unknow movie fps"

That is most probably a fault of the splitter or decoder you're using. Try switching to a different splitter and/or decoder.

Originally Posted by Luv

sorry,just one other thing: is it fine if the rendering time ms value gets very close to vsync value ?

I don't know what's up with that, but as long as playback is smooth there's nothing to worry about...

[Grmpf]

Originally Posted by madshi

JFMI: Why do you use Powerstrip instead of defining custom timings? With nVidia at least you should be able to define a custom output mode which exactly matches your Powerstrip timings. Not sure if it's possible with ATI, though.

Because i am using a ATi card (4770) ;-) Its fast, its quiet, powerstrip works (i am used to it), i do not need HD-Audio (my preamp is not capable of) and i am used to use ATi cards for my HTPC... but if madVR in the future would allow me to get rid of all the scripting/etc. to have the right timings with perfect settings i would be tempted to use a nvidia card...

[madshi]

Originally Posted by Grmpf

Because i am using a ATi card (4770) ;-) Its fast, its quiet, powerstrip works (i am used to it), i do not need HD-Audio (my preamp is not capable of) and i am used to use ATi cards for my HTPC... but if madVR in the future would allow me to get rid of all the scripting/etc. to have the right timings with perfect settings i would be tempted to use a nvidia card...

I don't think you need to go nVidia to achieve that. Nough said (for now)...

[Nevilne]

madshi, big thanks for such an awesome renderer. Just want to report strange bug:

I have 8600m card on dell laptop. I'm able to select either 59 or 60 hz refresh rate in nvidia control panel.
When I use 60hz madvr produces a lot of dropped/delayed frames on videos with high framerate, but there are no drops/delays at 59 hz.
The osd shows around 59.75 hz at both settings. This is on any player with or without reclock. Any idea what could have caused this?

Also, is there a need to use reclock with madvr if I don't do playback speed change in reclock?