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Old 17th May 2018, 19:49   #50901  |  Link
Clown shoes
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
does the shader work or atleast make it better?
I've not had a chance to test that yet as DSPlayer is my weapon of choice.

I am still working with Florian to see if we can get the 3DLUT working so I haven't completely given up hope yet
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Old 17th May 2018, 20:13   #50902  |  Link
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Is anyone here familiar with creating HDR test patterns in Mad TPG?

Under the HDR dropdown I'm not sure what I should be setting the nits to?

Should it be the closest to the maximum my display is capable of (430nits in my case) or is it the peak luminanace (1000 nits in my case) or maybe something else?
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Old 17th May 2018, 20:32   #50903  |  Link
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I'm gonna give Windows 8.1 a try on my HTPC (swap out Win10), and may I ask which nVidia driver version works best for MadVr and a GTX 1080 card? I don't play any games on this machine, so MadVr is my only consern.
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Old 17th May 2018, 20:44   #50904  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Clown shoes View Post
Did you ever find a workaround with your particular display?
I did, I had to put it in any mode beside PC because it's HDR behavior is much better when not in PC mode. However, it is then 4:2:2.

I still have to set the peak nits at or above the real peak in the content or it will do that, and some movies go pretty high, I have seen up to 2500 before.
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Old 17th May 2018, 20:52   #50905  |  Link
Clown shoes
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I did, I had to put it in any mode beside PC because it's HDR behavior is much better when not in PC mode. However, it is then 4:2:2.

I still have to set the peak nits at or above the real peak in the content or it will do that, and some movies go pretty high, I have seen up to 2500 before.
Ah, that's frustrating. Which TV is it, if you don't mind me asking?

You may be interested to know that I have managed to get rid of nearly all of the clipping by setting a very large number of patches on the HDR profile. The default is 175 but I ran 1100 at Florian's suggestion and nearly all of the clipping has gone. I'm currently running a 1500 patch profile and fingers crossed the clipping will be totally gone this time.

Out of interest have you noticed an overall reduction in luminance since using HDR 3DLUTS? Everything seems just a little bit duller than with passthrough to me.
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Old 17th May 2018, 21:10   #50906  |  Link
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It is LG's 2017 OLED, C7P.

I also used high patch counts, I believe I was using ~1000. Maybe I should try some more but when not using PC mode I got good results (no banding/clipping). It is expected that a 3DLUT (or any software calibration) would lower brightness, the only way to do any type of correction in software is to send <100% because you can never send >100%.

I ended up not using a 3DLUT for HDR, I did a manual calibration of my TV in Calman and simply use passthrough in madVR. Ideally you need a 3DLUT for every video with the peek nits set for the metadata of that video and after the manual calibration, and in home theater mode, my TV does a decent job tone mapping. A 3DLUT crafted for a particular video is a little better but passthough is better than using a "worst case" 3DLUT for everything.

I think there is more difficult HDR content, for example some of the earlier Harry Potter movies have very high peek nits in a few scenes (causing out of gamut issues like this) while most newer movies seem to use a more reasonable peek nits and all look good with the same 3DLUT.
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Old 17th May 2018, 21:40   #50907  |  Link
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It is LG's 2017 OLED, C7P.

I also used high patch counts, I believe I was using ~1000. Maybe I should try some more but when not using PC mode I got good results (no banding/clipping). It is expected that a 3DLUT (or any software calibration) would lower brightness, the only way to do any type of correction in software is to send <100% because you can never send >100%.

I ended up not using a 3DLUT for HDR, I did a manual calibration of my TV in Calman and simply use passthrough in madVR. Ideally you need a 3DLUT for every video with the peek nits set for the metadata of that video and after the manual calibration, and in home theater mode, my TV does a decent job tone mapping. A 3DLUT crafted for a particular video is a little better but passthough is better than using a "worst case" 3DLUT for everything.

I think there is more difficult HDR content, for example some of the earlier Harry Potter movies have very high peek nits in a few scenes (causing out of gamut issues like this) while most newer movies seem to use a more reasonable peek nits and all look good with the same 3DLUT.
Yeah, well if I'm honest I think I'm going to give up on the 3D LUT route as well. I just tried again with 1500 patches and although it's much better it still doesn't look nearly as good as passthrough or pixel shader math. I may go back and have another crack at calibrating the display much like you have done.

One question I do have for you; is there a reason you've chosen to use Passthrough rather than have MadVR pixel shader math do the work?
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Old 17th May 2018, 22:02   #50908  |  Link
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Concerning exclusive and windowed

I'm sorry if this has been addressed... If tried to skim this long thread but I would really appreciate some answers to Fullscreen exclusive vs fullscreen windowed;
Is there any discerning difference in performance?
I have a 1070 TI strix with a i7-4790k and 16 GB ram and I've had several issues with "failed exclusive mode" when running files in a playlist..and at worst, when moving the mouse sometimes the screen goes blank and I'm forced to hard reset the PC to get out of it..However, running in fullscreen windowed doesn't give any issues whatsoever. I've read that using exclusive mode isn't a must anymore..long story short; is fullscreen windowed with d3d11 as good as exclusive?
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Old 17th May 2018, 22:08   #50909  |  Link
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One question I do have for you; is there a reason you've chosen to use Passthrough rather than have MadVR pixel shader math do the work?
What work? Pixel shader math simply keeps the TV in one tone mapping mode while passthrough tells the TV different metadata but the TV still does its tone mapping either way. I don't notice an improvement having madVR's pixel shaders pre-processing for the TV and I always default to less processing if I don't see an improvement.

I use very different display settings for HDR, via its HDR mode, so I don't use pixel shaders (or 3DLUT) to convert to SDR. ~680 nits is way too high for SDR.

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is fullscreen windowed with d3d11 as good as exclusive?
Yes, I like it better myself.

Edit: There is currently limited 10-bit support in fullscreen windowed d3d11 so use exclusive if you need 10 bit. I recommend sticking to 8 bit output in most cases anyway but it is good to know if you are testing 10 bit output.
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Old 17th May 2018, 22:21   #50910  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
What work? Pixel shader math simply keeps the TV in one tone mapping mode while passthrough tells the TV different metadata but the TV still does its tone mapping either way. I don't notice an improvement having madVR's pixel shaders pre-processing for the TV and I always default to less processing if I don't see an improvement.

I use very different display settings for HDR, via its HDR mode, so I don't use pixel shaders (or 3DLUT) to convert to SDR. ~680 nits is way too high for SDR.



Yes, I like it better myself.

Edit: There is currently limited 10-bit support in fullscreen windowed d3d11 so use exclusive if you need 10 bit. I recommend sticking to 8 bit output in most cases anyway but it is good to know if you are testing 10 bit.
Don't think I can do 10 bit with my panasonic vt65..never seen 10-bit when playing any source so I'll stick with 8-bit and windowed mode..hate the exclusive "switching" so I guess I'll go with that until I buy a new TV (have my eye on the new Q9n 65"..might wait for microled..but I'm an impatient bastard)
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Old 17th May 2018, 23:09   #50911  |  Link
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Don't think I can do 10 bit with my panasonic vt65..
the Panasonic plasmas accept 10- and 12-bit but it's not worth the hassle and the potential for quality loss if Nvidia messes something up in their drivers.
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Old 17th May 2018, 23:58   #50912  |  Link
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the Panasonic plasmas accept 10- and 12-bit but it's not worth the hassle and the potential for quality loss if Nvidia messes something up in their drivers.
Waste of time on this set, greyscale is no better than 8bit with dithering, I looked myself. As mentioned many times already most displays have zero benefit using 10bit.

Last edited by ryrynz; 18th May 2018 at 00:00.
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Old 18th May 2018, 07:17   #50913  |  Link
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Waste of time on this set, greyscale is no better than 8bit with dithering, I looked myself. As mentioned many times already most displays have zero benefit using 10bit.
When you compare native 10bits vs 8bits with a display able to properly handle 10-12bits (i.e. natively) and the dithering is done by MadVR without the GPU doing its thing behind its back, you can’t look for banding on a pattern. There most likely won’t be any. You have to look for noise in real content. There should be a bit more noise in 8bits dithered than in 10bits, but there shouldn’t be more banding (provided the source is 10bits and properly mastered) as MadVR’s dithering is excellent. Also I suppose that by greyscale you mean a greyscale ramp, as 10bits shouldn’t haven any effect on calibration.
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Last edited by Manni; 18th May 2018 at 07:22.
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Old 18th May 2018, 07:17   #50914  |  Link
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Just wanted to update and share.

I have finally managed on Nvidia to get 23.976 4k RGB 10bit..yep, not 12, but 10 (both SDR and HDR) (confirmed also by my AV receiver on-screen info).

I discovered that using the display port (which is 1.4 on the 1080), and using the Club 3D CAC 1080 Display Port 1.4 HDMI 2.0 A (B) Hdr Active displayport to hdmi adapter, i can now choose between 8, 10 and 12bit in NVC @ 4k (10 and 12bit upto 30hz).

Using the adapter also puts the driver into a slightly different mode, in as far as Set Content Type is no longer available etc. Also, the white point scale and crispness is different than straight hdmi (which I prefer over straight hdmi). Some of the Nvidia drivers will only report upto 30hz being available using the adapter, but 397.76 displays all modes upto 60hz. The trade off is, as with some previous drivers, you cannot set up a custom res at 10bit (defaults to 8), so thats a down side - I guess it's about which trade offs you can live with.

At least on my set up, the colours seem more faithful, and no more over blown colours in HDR mode.

I know there is a lot of debate about 8bit with dithering etc, but, just wanted to share.

Update:

Ok, maybe i'm not doing the test correctly somehow, but using the 4.4.4 Chroma test image (link https://linustechtips.com/main/uploa...8c8d22f67e.png ) it also appears to pass the test at 23hz....?
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Old 18th May 2018, 07:30   #50915  |  Link
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Hi, I've following this thread for years now, but can't seem to find the answer to this, I know for sure someone on this thread will know the answer to this for sure.

When trying to calibrate using madTPG as a pattern generator, i have noticed no matter what changes i make to gamma etc on windows 7, madTPG pattern gamma etc remains untouched and does not change in line with the windows 7 gamma etc. Internal pattern gamma etc change in both calman and hcfr but not in madTPG. Thanks sim11
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Old 18th May 2018, 09:09   #50916  |  Link
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Also I suppose that by greyscale you mean a greyscale ramp, as 10bits shouldn’t haven any effect on calibration.
Yeah I used the 2160p Gradient_Split test file from avsforum. Plasmas are noisy and the higher the bitdepth the noisier it becomes, so it makes it very hard to see any difference.

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Originally Posted by yogibeezwax View Post
Don't think I can do 10 bit with my panasonic vt65..never seen 10-bit when playing any source so I'll stick with 8-bit and windowed mode..hate the exclusive "switching" so I guess I'll go with that until I buy a new TV
I'd recommend setting 'error diffusion option 2' and 'change dither for every frame' This resulted in the least amount of noise on my VT60, surprisingly changing the dither patterns should increase the noise but on plasma it appears to have the opposite effect, go figure.

Last edited by ryrynz; 18th May 2018 at 09:36.
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Old 18th May 2018, 14:38   #50917  |  Link
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Is this a bug or using NGU standart-medium or any NGU, always delays 1 frame. Video card is GTX 1050 ti, 390.65 win7 64 ultimate. No problems with super xbr-100 AR. Rendering times are low around 14 ms.
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Old 18th May 2018, 16:43   #50918  |  Link
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I own an OPTOMA UHZ 65 laser video projector that handles very well the HDR, in fact with madvr I'm going to passthrough .... yesterday out of curiosity I wanted to use the HDR to SDR conversion, the image is more brighter, but the colors appear washed out, even if you set it in "this display is already calibrated" BT.2020, what can it depend on?....I use MPC-BE.... I also wanted to know from the owners of AMD video cards which is the most stable driver for HDR?
Increase the target nits until the image gets darker. You will get better results with a projector by leaving more room for tone mapping by providing a higher target nits than your actual peak nits.

Last edited by Warner306; 18th May 2018 at 16:46.
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Old 18th May 2018, 16:46   #50919  |  Link
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Is this a bug or using NGU standart-medium or any NGU, always delays 1 frame. Video card is GTX 1050 ti, 390.65 win7 64 ultimate. No problems with super xbr-100 AR. Rendering times are low around 14 ms.
What do you mean by delays one frame? NGU will shift a pixel or two but frames should be rendered the same. Maybe it is taking a second longer at playback start to fill the queues?
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Old 18th May 2018, 16:49   #50920  |  Link
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I'm sorry if this has been addressed... If tried to skim this long thread but I would really appreciate some answers to Fullscreen exclusive vs fullscreen windowed;
Is there any discerning difference in performance?
I have a 1070 TI strix with a i7-4790k and 16 GB ram and I've had several issues with "failed exclusive mode" when running files in a playlist..and at worst, when moving the mouse sometimes the screen goes blank and I'm forced to hard reset the PC to get out of it..However, running in fullscreen windowed doesn't give any issues whatsoever. I've read that using exclusive mode isn't a must anymore..long story short; is fullscreen windowed with d3d11 as good as exclusive?
It won't change rendering times. Currently, there is a bug where 10-bit HDR passthrough isn't possible with Nvidia cards without fullscreen exclusive mode. This is considered a driver problem. Otherwise, it is a matter of preference.
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