Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Video Encoding > New and alternative video codecs

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 8th January 2004, 16:36   #1  |  Link
C0mPr355
On2 dungeon crawler
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 78
VP6 version 6.1.0.2 released!

Hello gentlemen and ladies

We have just released an updated version of the VP6 encoder.

VP6 6.1.0.2. http://www.on2.com/

the new version fixes some of those pesky bugs that you have all been having. Specifically:

-badframes.stt has been addressed and eliminted.
-The interlace problem with half fields being displayed has been fixed.
-some slight speed improvements on the low end.
**note that the two-pass improvements that are stated on the website are mainly from the 6.0.9.2. version of the codec.Those improvements are obviously included in this new version***

Enjoy and please put all feedback in this thread

c0mpy
__________________
I know nuhtzing!
C0mPr355 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th January 2004, 18:14   #2  |  Link
Sirber
retired developer
 
Sirber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,978
any news on VBR quality on 2-pass?
__________________
Detritus Software
Sirber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th January 2004, 21:04   #3  |  Link
slavickas
I'm Shpongled
 
slavickas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Lithuania
Posts: 303
thanks for new version, now i hope that everybody recodes with new version (i got >10megs badframes.stt file , by just watching winamp5 tv)

btw there is illogical recomendation in doc
>Low Datarate Compression
>Peak Bitrate Set to 80-90%.
if i correctly understood actually it will limit b\max bitrate, so why not set proper bitrate and peak to 100%?
slavickas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th January 2004, 23:04   #4  |  Link
C0mPr355
On2 dungeon crawler
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 78
right now this was mainly to get rid of the bugs mentioned above. It is not really any type of update to a better two-pass mode since 6.0.9.2. We are working on the two-pass mode improvements in the VBR area and so on. As for

- as for the peak bitrate setting that has more to do with streaming than local playback. So it in effect refers to how much of the bitrate is streamed back to limit bandwidth overusage. But duly noted is your find. It is actually an error in printing...the Peak bitrate option is not available in VBR encodes since there is no streaming involved. I will have that updated asap. Thanks

c0mpy
__________________
I know nuhtzing!
C0mPr355 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2004, 12:14   #5  |  Link
netchris
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Greece
Posts: 53
First of all congrats to C0mPr355 and the vp6 team for giving us an amazing codec.
I made some tests with difficult music video clips (lots of motion and vivid colors-I use them as reference clips to test the codecs), and the results with yesterdays release are top quallity.I use an average bitrate of 550 kbps.
The two previous releases were problematic visually when using 2 passes (blocky frames - due to lost keyframes I guess).With the new release the results are clearly better and it seams to me that the codec its starting to show its potential. I believe C0mPr355 you are underestimating this release when saying there are no important fixes for the 2 passes algorithm (mabe on purpose?) as I found the previous release not usuable because of the blockiness.
Anyway for me vp6 is slightly better than real 10 (at least for the bitrates and the purpose that I use it) as it gives a more detailed picture and an absolutely pleasing result.

Thanks again keep up the good work!!!!!

my 2 cents
Chris

************************************************
no flames please for any grammatical mistakes :-) english is not my native language.
netchris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th January 2004, 11:55   #6  |  Link
virus
Senior n00b
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Italy
Posts: 446
Hi!

I've tried out both VP6 6.0.9.2 and 6.1.0.2 and I'd like to share my views with you. I made some 2-pass encodings (clips from 40 seconds up to 6 minutes long) at 512x288 @ 25 fps (from DVD sources) with datarate between 650 and 800 kbps (~1 CD rips) and I compared it with XviD 1.0-beta2.

The output was fine. I think VP6 is very good at matching the colours of the source. Instead in some XviD clips there was a slight shift to red (not only on faces) and the original colour range was lost. Same (and maybe worse) for DivX5. Also, under 700 kbps (that's < 0.2 bpp) VP6 wins even for overall quality. I did my tests with no spatial/temporal resampling and min quantizer set to 4. I'm just wondering how a codec with no B-frames can reach such a performance. IMHO from a purely technical standpoint VP6 is a very interesting codec.

Also, I did a test with 120 KB/s rate (983 kbps, 0.266 bpp) and compared VP6 to XviD to dig deep into the classic "XviD retains more detail". This turned out to be true, but only with MPEG quantization, as I expected. XviD w/ H.263 looked quite similar to VP6.
So I think a different quantization should be embedded in VP6 for higher bitrates (> 0.2 bpp). VP6 is optimized for low bitrates but it doesn't scale well at higher rates. You add a lot of bits and get almost nothing. Lowering the min quantizer to 2 seems to help, but not that much.

Now, about the codec flaws...:
1) I'm going to strongly support the request (already made) of a Registry hack to set the default bitrate (in kilobits please!). I use DVDx 2.2 which has no GUI to enter the value. And with an integer KB value you've only a granularity of 8192 bps, not really the best...
2) sadly, with 2-pass I got oversized files up to 3% for 40-seconds clips, and even 0.5-0.6% on a 6-minutes clip. This is too high compared to XviD/DivX, and not so good for fitting a movie into a CD.
3) 2nd pass best quality is quite slow (got 7 fps on a P4 2.4GHz with VOB decoding/resize overhead, and 9-10 from uncompressed source)
4) where is the "General" profile you talk about in your site?

Also, I found a badframes.stt file in VDub directory, generated by version 6.1.0.2 (got a lot of badframes.stt with 6.0.9.2, now only one... guess we're improving )

Overall, I think that VP6 is a very good product.
If On2 manages to improve it (oversize/interface especially), it may even be excellent.
I look forward to newer releases.
virus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th January 2004, 12:20   #7  |  Link
slavickas
I'm Shpongled
 
slavickas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Lithuania
Posts: 303
>oversizing
i maybe wrong but i think 1KB in vdub = 8000bits, not 8192 (it's 2.4% difference)
slavickas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th January 2004, 17:11   #8  |  Link
Shandra
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 86
:up: Cool, going to check it out tomorrow

And again - I seem to have missed it within the guide, the threads, etc. How do you predict the File Size? If someone can give me a helpfull slab on my heads back and feel that it is out of place here (as me the blind one is asking for the obvious) PM me please
Shandra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th January 2004, 19:10   #9  |  Link
Sirber
retired developer
 
Sirber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,978
Quote:
Originally posted by netchris
Anyway for me vp6 is slightly better than real 10


Both are very similar (to me) at ~500kbps and I don't know which one I prefer
__________________
Detritus Software
Sirber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th January 2004, 19:35   #10  |  Link
Tommy Carrot
Registered User
 
Tommy Carrot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 809
Bug-report.

I think i've found the culprit behind the quality fluctuations. There are periodical "spikes" in the bitrate graph, in other words, some frames are much lesser compressed than the rest without any reason, even when i set constant quantizer. Here is what i'm talking about:



The motion is rather constant in these scenes, so these "spikes" shouldn't be there.

Anyone else experienced this problem? I think this can be the reason behind the rate-control problems.

I've win98SE system and athlon xp 1700+, if that helps.

Last edited by Tommy Carrot; 13th January 2004 at 19:39.
Tommy Carrot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th January 2004, 19:44   #11  |  Link
Sirber
retired developer
 
Sirber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,978
I've seen taht too, so I thought the small one were b-frames...
__________________
Detritus Software
Sirber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th January 2004, 19:50   #12  |  Link
Tommy Carrot
Registered User
 
Tommy Carrot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 809
Yea, but vp6 doesn't have b-frames, so this must be a bug.
Tommy Carrot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th January 2004, 20:02   #13  |  Link
SpaceV
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 61
slow HDTV playback

in some old post, one of the ON2 guys admitted recreating
the slow playback isue with HDTV resolutions.
Is that fixed in this release?
Thanks.
SpaceV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th January 2004, 21:25   #14  |  Link
Bulletproof
Registered User
 
Bulletproof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 318
Quote:
Originally posted by Tommy Carrot
Bug-report.

I think i've found the culprit behind the quality fluctuations. There are periodical "spikes" in the bitrate graph, in other words, some frames are much lesser compressed than the rest without any reason, even when i set constant quantizer. Here is what i'm talking about:



The motion is rather constant in these scenes, so these "spikes" shouldn't be there.

Anyone else experienced this problem? I think this can be the reason behind the rate-control problems.

I've win98SE system and athlon xp 1700+, if that helps.
Those are probably missed keyframes, I sent On2Tech a file with many missed keyframes using the newest version of the codec, but he hasn't said much about it.. Or it could be the temporal/spatial resamplers doing that, not positive though..

Last edited by Bulletproof; 13th January 2004 at 21:28.
Bulletproof is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th January 2004, 22:08   #15  |  Link
Tommy Carrot
Registered User
 
Tommy Carrot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 809
Quote:
Originally posted by Bulletproof
Those are probably missed keyframes, I sent On2Tech a file with many missed keyframes using the newest version of the codec, but he hasn't said much about it.. Or it could be the temporal/spatial resamplers doing that, not positive though..
No, those are not scene-changes, those frames shouldn't be any larger than the rest. They are quantized less than the other frames, without any reason, that's why they are larger.

Last edited by Tommy Carrot; 13th January 2004 at 22:10.
Tommy Carrot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th January 2004, 00:37   #16  |  Link
On2Tech
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Tommy Carrot
No, those are not scene-changes, those frames shouldn't be any larger than the rest. They are quantized less than the other frames, without any reason, that's why they are larger.
They are a special kind of frame that we intentionally encode at a higher datarate in order to bring back some detail otherwise lost to sub pixel motion estimation. It generally gets placed in slow motion scenes or pans.

Do you find the effect disturbing when the clip plays? I know single stepping through the frames it becomes evident.
On2Tech is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th January 2004, 00:51   #17  |  Link
Tommy Carrot
Registered User
 
Tommy Carrot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 809
Quote:
Originally posted by On2Tech
They are a special kind of frame that we intentionally encode at a higher datarate in order to bring back some detail otherwise lost to sub pixel motion estimation. It generally gets placed in slow motion scenes or pans.

Do you find the effect disturbing when the clip plays? I know single stepping through the frames it becomes evident.
Well, i would prefer without it. The quality jumpings are quite noticable during playback imo, and it can distract me. If you really think it benefits the quality i think it should be a selectable option.
Tommy Carrot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th January 2004, 00:54   #18  |  Link
Sirber
retired developer
 
Sirber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,978
quality jump is a very big problem. YOu should keep the same quality between 2 key frames, or else it's very anoying to the eye.
__________________
Detritus Software
Sirber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th January 2004, 08:43   #19  |  Link
Doom9
clueless n00b
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 10,572
Quote:
Do you find the effect disturbing when the clip plays? I know single stepping through the frames it becomes evident.
I haven't noted anything like it in the latest codec comparison but I do recall that especially XviD exhibited such an effect in the SPR test (the night scene) and it bugged the crap out of me. The last comparison was the first one where there was no "quality readjustment" (that's how I call it) effect was readily visible anymore.
__________________
For the web's most comprehensive collection of DVD backup guides go to www.doom9.org
Doom9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th January 2004, 13:07   #20  |  Link
Shinobu
Satsuki'S Softs Maker
 
Shinobu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 180
Yes please don't use this, or make a configurable version of it ^^.
I'm often work with constant quality or quantitser on all codecs, but when i do that in vp6 the quality jumping make me mad, it's too bad because without that vp6 would probably be my archivage codec (at least for movies ^^)....

++
Shinobu is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:36.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.