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Old 23rd March 2013, 03:53   #18101  |  Link
dansrfe
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My last comment on this topic, promise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonQ View Post
"Most"? I don't think so.

Some that claim to only support 60 Hz can be made to accept other refresh rates using special software but certainly not all. Even my high-end 24WMGX3 only supports 50 Hz via HDMI and even then it clearly isn't natively displayed because there is tearing.
With custom resolutions or Custom Resolution Utility, I've been able to use 48Hz and 50Hz on all my displays excluding my Panasonic plasma which accepts 24hz and, according to the settings, repeats each frame 3 times to achieve 96Hz on its own.
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Old 23rd March 2013, 06:42   #18102  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Dodgexander View Post
Yes, for wasapi output. But also because there is a small difference between 24hz and 23.9 meaning in order not to see a frame added every so often you want to alter the audio clock instead(essentially what reclock does)
I don't use wasapi because windows 7 normalization doesn't work with it. The other reason you mention changed my mind on uninstalling. Another thing is slowing 25 to 24 to reduce refresh rate changes. I tried but can't get it working right with madvr, has anyone else?

madvr 25 as 24 checked, reclock slowdown checked = 24 at 50hz, bad
madvr checked, reclock unchecked = 25 at 50hz, good but expect 24 at 48
madvr unchecked, reclock checked = 24 at 50hz, bad
both checked = 24 at 50hz, bad

Perhaps it's a madvr bug that can be worked around by using reclock runevent.vbs and disabling madvr switching.

Last edited by turbojet; 23rd March 2013 at 06:53.
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Old 23rd March 2013, 06:59   #18103  |  Link
dansrfe
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Originally Posted by turbojet View Post
I don't use wasapi because windows 7 normalization doesn't work with it. The other reason you mention changed my mind on uninstalling. Another thing is slowing 25 to 24 to reduce refresh rate changes. I tried but can't get it working right with madvr, has anyone else?

madvr 25 as 24 checked, reclock slowdown checked = 24 at 50hz, bad
madvr checked, reclock unchecked = 25 at 50hz, good but expect 24 at 48
madvr unchecked, reclock checked = 24 at 50hz, bad
both checked = 24 at 50hz, bad

Perhaps it's a madvr bug that can be worked around by using reclock runevent.vbs and disabling madvr switching.
Well, the more important point of PAL slowdown is to watch the video at the speed it was filmed at. madVR's job is to make the output as smooth as possible to the best of its ability.

Users who usually check the "treat 25 as 24" are those that have a 24Hz multiple refresh rate in the list of valid refresh rates that madVR can choose from. That setting is moot if you don't have a 24Hz refresh rate and causes more harm than good in such a situation.
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Old 23rd March 2013, 07:01   #18104  |  Link
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Originally Posted by dansrfe View Post
With custom resolutions or Custom Resolution Utility, I've been able to use 48Hz and 50Hz on all my displays excluding my Panasonic plasma which accepts 24hz and, according to the settings, repeats each frame 3 times to achieve 96Hz on its own.
Just because you can send that to your TV doesn't mean it runs the panel natively at that rate. I would be very careful with the non-standard rates, and do thorough checks to ensure it doesnt internally mess everything up, like most TVs do.
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Old 23rd March 2013, 07:26   #18105  |  Link
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Originally Posted by dansrfe View Post
Well, the more important point of PAL slowdown is to watch the video at the speed it was filmed at. madVR's job is to make the output as smooth as possible to the best of its ability.

Users who usually check the "treat 25 as 24" are those that have a 24Hz multiple refresh rate in the list of valid refresh rates that madVR can choose from. That setting is moot if you don't have a 24Hz refresh rate and causes more harm than good in such a situation.
There's 48hz in the switch line but it's switching to 50hz with 25fps source even when reclock is slowing down. Removing 50hz from the line makes it change to native 60hz with 25fps.

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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Just because you can send that to your TV doesn't mean it runs the panel natively at that rate. I would be very careful with the non-standard rates, and do thorough checks to ensure it doesnt internally mess everything up, like most TVs do.
Are smoothmotion testpatterns sufficient? This displays specs are 56-82hz but 48 and 50hz show no judder in testpatterns.

Last edited by turbojet; 23rd March 2013 at 07:42.
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Old 23rd March 2013, 11:35   #18106  |  Link
DragonQ
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Originally Posted by dansrfe View Post
My last comment on this topic, promise.


With custom resolutions or Custom Resolution Utility, I've been able to use 48Hz and 50Hz on all my displays excluding my Panasonic plasma which accepts 24hz and, according to the settings, repeats each frame 3 times to achieve 96Hz on its own.
If by "displays" you mean TVs then sure. PC monitors do not, by and large, support anything other than 60 Hz natively (apart from the newer 120 Hz ones of course).

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Originally Posted by Dodgexander View Post
If it's the case most displays support the change, why is it that they offer technology that is suppose to eliminate judder when fed a 24Hz signal when the same displays supposedly natively display 24 Hz and why now do we have 120 Hz+ tv's??
That is different. Even when watching 24p at a native refresh rate (e.g. 96 Hz), there will be "judder" during panning shots just because the frame rate is low (which gives the "film effect"). Interpolating new frames between the existing ones smooths things out - an effect that some like and some don't. This is not related to the judder you get when frames are not displayed for an equal amount of time (e.g. watching 24p at 60 Hz).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodgexander View Post
I'm welcome to be proved wrong, but I'm quite sure the ability to accept 24Hz does not equal the actual television refreshing at that rate, but instead it being "converted" to the native refresh rate.
This was true in the early days of flat panels, it is not now. Any review of an HDTV will tell you whether it natively displays 24p/23.976p content properly. And again, pretty much all TVs sold in Europe can do 50 Hz and 60 Hz natively, even the old CRTs that were made long before HD or 24p BDs.
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Last edited by DragonQ; 23rd March 2013 at 11:39.
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Old 23rd March 2013, 12:43   #18107  |  Link
leeperry
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Originally Posted by DragonQ View Post
Even when watching 24p at a native refresh rate (e.g. 96 Hz), there will be "judder" during panning shots just because the frame rate is low (which gives the "film effect").
But that would also depend on what actually happens between the actual source frames, madshi discussed this matter at http://www.avsforum.com/t/802850/

I just got ahold of a high-end flat screen CRT and 24p@96Hz looks so amazingly smooth! Yes, it's darn small but black is as deep as on a TOTL Plasma(0.03 cd/mē) and movies look as smooth as they will ever get IMO

BTW, I recently tried a bunch of LCD TV's, they would all support 48Hz but that would hiccup very badly.....hell, even 24Hz hiccuped on one of them, hah!

Last edited by leeperry; 23rd March 2013 at 12:46.
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Old 23rd March 2013, 12:55   #18108  |  Link
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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
they would all support 48Hz but that would hiccup very badly
Which would mean they don't actually support 48Hz, and just fake it.
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Old 23rd March 2013, 15:27   #18109  |  Link
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Well I own a Samsung M86 series (LN61?? in North America).

It was a tv advertised with no "official" 24p support, but it does accept a 24hz signal when forced, its just not in its EDID.

So this leads me to believe that 24hz mode on my tv and probably many others, either isn't implemented well, or converts the refresh rate itself and I can't believe they would invent technology that equals a multiple of this refresh rate, if displays already displayed 24hz ok.

How exactly do you know that each display is infact showing 24hz? I can't think 120mhz+ tvs were designed just for frame interpolation.
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Old 23rd March 2013, 17:30   #18110  |  Link
DragonQ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodgexander View Post
Well I own a Samsung M86 series (LN61?? in North America).

It was a tv advertised with no "official" 24p support, but it does accept a 24hz signal when forced, its just not in its EDID.

So this leads me to believe that 24hz mode on my tv and probably many others, either isn't implemented well, or converts the refresh rate itself and I can't believe they would invent technology that equals a multiple of this refresh rate, if displays already displayed 24hz ok.
Ah so because your TV doesn't support it properly, others obviously don't either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodgexander View Post
How exactly do you know that each display is infact showing 24hz?
It is incredibly obvious when the refresh rate doesn't match the video frame rate if you know what you're looking for. I am watching 23.976p on an HDTV right now that has no interpolation features at all. I would know if it was displaying it at 50 or 60 Hz. Seriously, you can Google this stuff. It's like saying "how exactly do you know that this colour TV is colour?" There were lists made a few years back showing which TVs did and didn't support true 24p playback.

Not really related but also note that TVs sold in the USA (possibly all of North America) are intentionally crippled to lack 50 Hz support.
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Old 23rd March 2013, 20:56   #18111  |  Link
vivan
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There's something wrong with new madTestPatternSource.
With new version image is broken with any renderer (except madVR), pic. With old one everything is ok.
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Old 23rd March 2013, 22:35   #18112  |  Link
leeperry
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Which would mean they don't actually support 48Hz, and just fake it.
Well, you don't get the laconic "out of range" error message but still, it's not 1:1 so that's useless for video use.

Anyway, I see that there are patents explaining how to mimick the way a CRT works: http://www.google.com/patents/US7324933

I'm sure madshi already read those pages anyway, and I guess that me complaining about how his frame blending looks like a ghost story on a CRT is a gross misjudgment as CRT's work very differently from the rest anyway. I've ordered yet another LCD TV(not an edge-led model this time, though ), so I'll try my luck again ^^

And going back to Sammy TV's, I find the DNIE effect really obvious on the BBC screencap used in this review: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/samsu...ge=Performance

I'm just a little confused when they write:
Quote:
As with previous Samsung LED LCDs, the Samsung UE55F8000 can show all 1080 lines in a scrolling resolution test chart, provided that the [Motion Plus] system is engaged. With this feature off, you’ll see the usual LCD motion performance, which delivers just 300 lines worth of clear details. That’s enough for 24fps movies to appear without much in the way of discernable blur, but fast, high motion content like televised sports will still appear with some.

Thankfully, Samsung’s [Motion Plus] system has individually controllable deblur and dejudder parameters. That means that we can benefit from the increased motion resolution, but still watch movies with their original, characteristic, filmic motion, without the TV generating new interpolated inbetween frames and converting them to high-motion (the so-called “soap opera effect”).
300 lines worth of clear details

scrolling resolution test chart
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Old 24th March 2013, 00:28   #18113  |  Link
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Perhaps they are talking about the fact that fast motion in video results in a lot of detail loss. I remember reading a study that showed very high refresh rates (200+ Hz) hugely increased perceived detail during motion, even more so than increasing spatial resolution (e.g. 4K vs 2K). UHD is meant to support 100/120 Hz progressively scanned video so hopefully that is what future broadcasts will use.
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Old 24th March 2013, 03:58   #18114  |  Link
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Ah so because your TV doesn't support it properly, others obviously don't either.


It is incredibly obvious when the refresh rate doesn't match the video frame rate if you know what you're looking for. I am watching 23.976p on an HDTV right now that has no interpolation features at all. I would know if it was displaying it at 50 or 60 Hz. Seriously, you can Google this stuff. It's like saying "how exactly do you know that this colour TV is colour?" There were lists made a few years back showing which TVs did and didn't support true 24p playback.

Not really related but also note that TVs sold in the USA (possibly all of North America) are intentionally crippled to lack 50 Hz support.
Well even though my display shows on info 24p, there is judder every so often. I suspect because it wasn't implicated yet, so it doesn't know how to deal with 23.976>24Hz correctly.

You mention the difference to be "obvious" but there is still no definitive way to test, unlike using a test pattern for colour!

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Old 24th March 2013, 11:42   #18115  |  Link
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You mention the difference to be "obvious" but there is still no definitive way to test, unlike using a test pattern for colour!
Do you need a test pattern to see whether a TV is colour? I'm done with this conversation, if you really can't use Google to look this up then I can't help you.
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Old 24th March 2013, 11:55   #18116  |  Link
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Can it be used directly in MPC/POTp?
I do not know, I not the expert in it.
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Old 24th March 2013, 12:19   #18117  |  Link
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madshi, could you also write date of release near version "madVR v0.86.1" here ? ^.^
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Old 24th March 2013, 13:10   #18118  |  Link
Dodgexander
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Originally Posted by DragonQ View Post
Do you need a test pattern to see whether a TV is colour? I'm done with this conversation, if you really can't use Google to look this up then I can't help you.
Not to see if it displays colour, to see if it displays colour correctly.

Comparing this to whether a tv is colour or not is like comparing whether a TV refreshes or not, not whether it refreshes correctly.

Sorry to antagonise you, not really my intention.
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Old 24th March 2013, 16:44   #18119  |  Link
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madshi, could you also write date of release near version "madVR v0.86.1" here ? ^.^
+ Version in title, it would save useless clicks.
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Old 24th March 2013, 18:22   #18120  |  Link
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Version of release needs to be in the OSD IMHO.
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