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Old 13th April 2014, 00:20   #25901  |  Link
turbojet
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I don't know how you guys are seeing 59 fps from that 29i source. It duplicates every frame which is unnecessary gpu load for madvr but that's how it currently works, would be nice for madvr to handle it better at some point.

Another case where madvr uses unnecessary gpu load is film in 59p.

Here's 2 cases, and the only cases where madvr should be outputting 59 fps: 59p and 59i.
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Old 13th April 2014, 00:27   #25902  |  Link
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I'd really like to see some more development put into NNEDI to attempt to improve it, I wonder the chances of it improving in future? Basically it sounds like someone needs to create an external Darby-like neural network upscaler.

I assume it wouldn't be cost effective to implement a good upscaler into normal devices, it's possible good quality lower res content upscaling won't get improved treatment with 4K devices at all.

I assume MadVR will be the best solution of a long time to come.
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Old 13th April 2014, 01:08   #25903  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Originally Posted by turbojet View Post
I don't know how you guys are seeing 59 fps from that 29i source. It duplicates every frame which is unnecessary gpu load for madvr but that's how it currently works, would be nice for madvr to handle it better at some point.
I can only repeat what various people have told you before:

29i is supposed to be output as 59p. (Note that many people mix 29i and 59i, but generally mean the same thing, 29 interlaced frames/59 fields per second, ie. what is typically broadcast in NTSC countries)
If its interlaced, it should be output with twice the "frame rate". Its as simple as that.

That sample however is NOT 29i, its 29p. You renamed it with a "deint=video" tag in the filename, which FORCES madVR to deinterlace the video. If you do that, its going to treat it like a normal interlaced file, which as a result does indeed duplicate all frames - but thats only because you forced it to do that, it wouldn't do that on its own.

Interlaced video does NOT contain frames, it contains fields. For technical reasons, two fields are packed into one "frame". So what you do when deinterlacing is first split these two fields again - so your 29 fps interlaced stream becomes 59 fields per second, and then every field is individually deinterlaced, which results in 59 frames per second. Thats how proper deinterlacing HAS to work. If a stream is interlaced, that is what will ALWAYS happen.
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Last edited by nevcairiel; 13th April 2014 at 01:28. Reason: typos
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Old 13th April 2014, 01:56   #25904  |  Link
turbojet
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You are right nevcairel I need to stop relying on playing within a wtv container, madvr deinterlaced that same source and duplicated frames, it also showed a resolution of 720x480 even though it's really 29p inside of 720p59.

Here's the type of source I'm talking about, madvr finds cadence and displays mostly correct now. I remember months, maybe a year or so now it wasn't and I had to enable half frame deinterlacing to display things like this correctly. Which is an improvement and seems only film in 59p is the only unnecessary performance hog.
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Old 13th April 2014, 03:59   #25905  |  Link
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
That sample however is NOT 29i, its 29p. You renamed it with a "deint=video" tag in the filename, which FORCES madVR to deinterlace the video. If you do that, its going to treat it like a normal interlaced file, which as a result does indeed duplicate all frames - but thats only because you forced it to do that, it wouldn't do that on its own.
Actually that sample is 59p and the forced deint takes it to 120 with duplicates. Same effect though.
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Old 13th April 2014, 04:25   #25906  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MokrySedeS View Post
Here, a quick comparison: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/70195
That's @ 200% zoom of course.
720p to 25x16 or 15x14 using NN is akin to LOSSLESS conversion

720p to 25x16 or 15x14 + jinc/lanz/xxxx is Lossless + obvious-POSTPROCESSING... you guys remember those Emulator filters, same concept.


Granted madvr does lots of stuff behind the scene even with NN that would constitute post-processing.

But I'm am merely conveying my preference for prioritizing True-To-Source.


Not saying everyone should follow suit, or that it's the-right-way..

I honestly don't know why few o'yall acting like I just ate your lunches from the community freezer.



as with 19x10 to 25x16, well, I don't have a choice, my monitor is 25x16, I have to use the blur filters, or else everything looks blotchy (blotchy, not blocky)...

I like blocky if it's 1:1
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Old 13th April 2014, 04:55   #25907  |  Link
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
Granted madvr does lots of stuff behind the scene even with NN that would constitute post-processing.
Any examples? If you have debanding off and are using NN, what else is there?

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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
720p to 25x16 or 15x14 + jinc/lanz/xxxx is Lossless + obvious-POSTPROCESSING... you guys remember those Emulator filters, same concept.
You mean like adding scanlines etc. so make it look more like a CRT? I wouldn't put those in the same bag as a resize. A resize is trying to approximate what an "original" image would have looked like if it was at 2560x1440 while those Emulator filters are adding information that is not derived from the source at all.

I am not saying you should not use NN for yourself but trying to say a resize is the same as an effect filter is going too far.

If I take a 2560x1440 source, resize it to 720p, and then display it at 2560x1440 it looks more like the original using Jinc3 than NN. Jinc3 is a bit softer and NN has terrible aliasing.

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Originally Posted by Fullmetal Encoder View Post
With 4k screens coming I shudder to think what scaling up DVD content would look like. At this rate everyone will need two different screens to enjoy all of their content properly.
Why? What is worse about 480p/576p -> 2160p compared to 480p/576p -> 1080p?

Watching a DVD on a 70" screen I can understand some shudders but that is due to the size not the resolution, the extra resolution only helps.

Last edited by Asmodian; 13th April 2014 at 05:53.
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Old 13th April 2014, 06:29   #25908  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
I can only repeat what various people have told you before:

29i is supposed to be output as 59p. (Note that many people mix 29i and 59i, but generally mean the same thing, 29 interlaced frames/59 fields per second, ie. what is typically broadcast in NTSC countries)
If its interlaced, it should be output with twice the "frame rate". Its as simple as that.

That sample however is NOT 29i, its 29p. You renamed it with a "deint=video" tag in the filename, which FORCES madVR to deinterlace the video. If you do that, its going to treat it like a normal interlaced file, which as a result does indeed duplicate all frames - but thats only because you forced it to do that, it wouldn't do that on its own.

Interlaced video does NOT contain frames, it contains fields. For technical reasons, two fields are packed into one "frame". So what you do when deinterlacing is first split these two fields again - so your 29 fps interlaced stream becomes 59 fields per second, and then every field is individually deinterlaced, which results in 59 frames per second. Thats how proper deinterlacing HAS to work. If a stream is interlaced, that is what will ALWAYS happen.
i'm pretty sure his main quetion is about 29i with telecine 2:2 content if it is fine to watch this with half frame rate.

a 1080p29 interlaced stream with telecine is normally called telecine in this forum to make the difference clear but the stream is still interlaced.

of cause this doesn't change all the fakt you have stated above proper deinterlacing creates 50/60 fps even with a 3:2 telecine source. a very clear high quality BD with 1080p29i and 2:2 cadence is deinterlanced to 59p with duplicated frames thanks to the inverse telecine function of nvidia and thanks to the pulldown detection of amd.
but in the end a stream like this should be watched with MadVR IVTC or in very rare cases just as progressive.

Last edited by huhn; 13th April 2014 at 06:54.
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Old 13th April 2014, 13:16   #25909  |  Link
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I figured that it might help madshi and those who want to keep track of the thread if a survey was created which allowed people to enter render times, settings and GPU in a formatted manner.

To achieve that, I created a public survey. The spreadsheet is linked upon submission of some render times. If anyone has questions, suggestions or problems with the survey, feel free.

I chose a default setting which is probably a realistic benchmark for everyday use of NNEDI3.

Last edited by Procrastinating; 13th April 2014 at 13:19.
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Old 13th April 2014, 13:26   #25910  |  Link
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Madshi, how does madVR's NNEDI settings stack up vs the default settings in Avisynth filter? Was wondering if we'd see options available for nsize and qual etc.
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Old 13th April 2014, 13:35   #25911  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Originally Posted by Procrastinating View Post
I chose a default setting which is probably a realistic benchmark for everyday use of NNEDI3.
Using NNEDI for chroma upscaling is rather wasted, as the benefit is rather miniscule. This does not seem to be a realistic setting.
Luma doubling is its real power and its real visible advantage over the other modes.

Also, madVR cannot make use of multiple GPUs, mentioning the whole CF/SLI stuff just overcomplicates it.
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Old 13th April 2014, 14:26   #25912  |  Link
ryrynz
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Originally Posted by Procrastinating View Post
I figured that it might help madshi and those who want to keep track of the thread if a survey was created which allowed people to enter render times, settings and GPU in a formatted manner.
Is it possible to use drop down boxes for options? People can just test what combinations they want which are likely to be what others will want to run anyway.
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Old 13th April 2014, 15:03   #25913  |  Link
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Using NNEDI for chroma upscaling is rather wasted, as the benefit is rather miniscule. This does not seem to be a realistic setting.
I think you mean chroma doubling, right?
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Old 13th April 2014, 15:15   #25914  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by Procrastinating View Post
I figured that it might help madshi and those who want to keep track of the thread if a survey was created which allowed people to enter render times, settings and GPU in a formatted manner.

To achieve that, I created a public survey. The spreadsheet is linked upon submission of some render times. If anyone has questions, suggestions or problems with the survey, feel free.

I chose a default setting which is probably a realistic benchmark for everyday use of NNEDI3.
This is interesting, but I would suggest to wait for the next madVR build before doing the survey, because I'm currently trying to reduce the AMD OpenCL interop cost.
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Old 13th April 2014, 15:20   #25915  |  Link
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you find a way to lower data size, so NN is performed on the opencl side?
or are you going with something like d3d -> direct compute -> opencl?
time will tell
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Old 13th April 2014, 15:40   #25916  |  Link
nevcairiel
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I think you mean chroma doubling, right?
His one pre-defined settings string suggested NNEDI for chroma upscaling, and thats what I meant.

Chroma doubling is probably in a similar boat, though.
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Old 13th April 2014, 16:20   #25917  |  Link
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This is interesting, but I would suggest to wait for the next madVR build before doing the survey, because I'm currently trying to reduce the AMD OpenCL interop cost.
I figured I would let people select any particular build they want at this stage, any data is good data. If you want only a subset of information in the survey though, then I can change that.

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Originally Posted by ryrynz
Is it possible to use drop down boxes for options? People can just test what combinations they want which are likely to be what others will want to run anyway.
Google docs seems to be impressively inflexible, but I'm sure I could try and find a way to turn all the convoluted typing into a series of drop-down boxes, which I think everyone would prefer. I need sleep though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nevcairiel
Using NNEDI for chroma upscaling is rather wasted, as the benefit is rather miniscule. This does not seem to be a realistic setting.
Luma doubling is its real power and its real visible advantage over the other modes.

Also, madVR cannot make use of multiple GPUs, mentioning the whole CF/SLI stuff just overcomplicates it.
I have heard a few people find that chroma upscaling actually benefits more than luma with NNEDI3 in some cases, but if the semi-general consensus is something entirely different from what I understand, then I can change that.

I included crossfire because madshi said that while he isn't trying to work on it, he is not trying to prevent it either. I think it would be interesting nonetheless to see if crossfire performance improves or degrades over time, for when/if madshi wants to start working on crossfire.

The main draw for this I think, besides providing more efficient data for madshi, would be to track performance in various scenarios and hardware configs over time. If I can sort out a nice way to both input and parse information quickly and painlessly with this, it could become quite a handy tool for everyone. I'm thinking about seeing if I can parse specific GPUs and compare their characteristics against rendering times with this system. Of course, the spreadsheet is free for anyone to make use of as well.

Last edited by Procrastinating; 13th April 2014 at 16:23.
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Old 13th April 2014, 17:23   #25918  |  Link
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This is interesting, but I would suggest to wait for the next madVR build before doing the survey, because I'm currently trying to reduce the AMD OpenCL interop cost.
I suppose I will be your prime guinea pig for that?
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Old 13th April 2014, 19:57   #25919  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Procrastinating View Post
I figured that it might help madshi and those who want to keep track of the thread if a survey was created which allowed people to enter render times, settings and GPU in a formatted manner.

To achieve that, I created a public survey. The spreadsheet is linked upon submission of some render times. If anyone has questions, suggestions or problems with the survey, feel free.

I chose a default setting which is probably a realistic benchmark for everyday use of NNEDI3.
Seems like a good idea, however to make it actually comparable you'd need to impose all settings, possibly some predefined presets to chose from and impose the file played. Best to use some freely available material like Big Buck Bunny (www.bigbuckbunny.org), available under Creative Commons rights. That way you can be sure that the testing environment is similar for everyone.
I'd also include GPU usage apart from rendering times, since with NNEDI you get a penalty from just enabling it and increasing neurons doesn't increase the render times that much, especially on stronger GPUs.
Then you just take the results, group them by target (screen's) resolution and settings (presets) to compare them pretty easily.

That's of course just my opinion, but I hope it proves useful for you.

Last edited by michkrol; 13th April 2014 at 20:48.
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Old 13th April 2014, 21:07   #25920  |  Link
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Would it be possible to have the OSD display which profile is active when playing please. And to also highlight said active playing profile in the MadVR settings window.

I have to currently look at my GPU usage and temp to work out what's going on. I'm not a very technical user so something as simple as a line on the OSD and a highlight over the profile in settings would be really useful.
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