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Old 7th March 2014, 14:45   #24441  |  Link
seiyafan
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Thanks madshi! I overestimated the downscaling time that's why I separated the 720s into two columns, thanks for pointing it out.

Now, would someone lend me your 4k project for a week for testing?

Last edited by seiyafan; 7th March 2014 at 14:49.
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Old 7th March 2014, 15:00   #24442  |  Link
JonnyRedHed
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I'm still getting a black screen every now and again which all but freezes zoom player. No crash reporter pops up. Apart from this little issue all is good.
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Old 7th March 2014, 15:43   #24443  |  Link
seiyafan
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I am still not sure about how doubling/quadrupling works in one area. Suppose if I play a 480 video on 1440 monitor with only doubling enabled, it would use doubling to do 480 to 960 first, then upscaling from 960 to 1440?
And if quadrupling is enabled, it would go from 480 to 1960 then downscale to 1440? If that's the case when does it ever use doubling if quadrupling is enabled?
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Old 7th March 2014, 15:49   #24444  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seiyafan View Post
I am still not sure about how doubling/quadrupling works in one area. Suppose if I play a 480 video on 1440 monitor with only doubling enabled, it would use doubling to do 480 to 960 first, then upscaling from 960 to 1440?
And if quadrupling is enabled, it would go from 480 to 1960 then downscale to 1440? If that's the case when does it ever use doubling if quadrupling is enabled?
You can configure scale factors when which should be used.
When you play 480 at 1440, you can tell it to quadruple, or only double and scale the rest of the way, and when playing 720 at 1440, it would only need to double, not quadruple anymore.
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Old 7th March 2014, 16:27   #24445  |  Link
Q-the-STORM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seiyafan View Post
I am still not sure about how doubling/quadrupling works in one area. Suppose if I play a 480 video on 1440 monitor with only doubling enabled, it would use doubling to do 480 to 960 first, then upscaling from 960 to 1440?
And if quadrupling is enabled, it would go from 480 to 1960 then downscale to 1440? If that's the case when does it ever use doubling if quadrupling is enabled?
If I remember correctly, doubling does one nnedi pass and quadrupling simply does another nnedi pass...

So yes, if you got doubling enabled, it would do nnedi 480 to 960 and upscale the rest to 1440...
If you got quadrupling if would do nnedi 480 to 960, then nnedi 960 to 1920, then downscale to 1440...

and if you play 720p, then it should only do doubling (one nnedi pass) 720 to 1440, even if you have quadrupling enabled...
it should only quadruple if the target resolution has not been reached with one nnedi pass...
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Old 7th March 2014, 16:38   #24446  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
LAV uses a default 8x8 bayer matrix with ordered dithering.
The biggest problem was in YUV->RGB conversion, because I used the same matrix for all three channels, it resulted in the pattern to be amplified - but I fixed that by shifting the pattern between channels now, and the amplified pattern effect went away (and random uses different random sources for all channels anyway)

I don't consider random dithering in LAV any worse then ordered dithering. When looking at the night&day difference between random and ordered in madVR (when targeting lower bitdepth), I wondered for a second if random dithering wasn't implemented slightly incorrectly that made it too strong.
An advanced 32x32 ordered dithering matrix looks significantly better than an 8x8 bayer matrix, IMHO. madVR's random dithering is similar to what is recommended by experts for audio processing. It's using TPDF, and the amount of noise is probably twice as high as you're using in LAV. To be honest, I'm not sure if the same principles apply in video processing as they do in audio processing. Maybe a simpler approach instead of TPDF would do, and a lower amount of noise. But I don't think I'll bother investigating that now, since 32x32 ordered dithering looks better to my eyes, anyway, and isn't any slower...

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Originally Posted by JonnyRedHed View Post
I'm still getting a black screen every now and again which all but freezes zoom player. No crash reporter pops up. Apart from this little issue all is good.
What does the task manager say about ZoomPlayer's CPU RAM consumption when it's frozen like that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by seiyafan View Post
Suppose if I play a 480 video on 1440 monitor with only doubling enabled, it would use doubling to do 480 to 960 first, then upscaling from 960 to 1440?
And if quadrupling is enabled, it would go from 480 to 1960 then downscale to 1440?
Yes, if that's what your configuration asks for.
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Old 7th March 2014, 16:44   #24447  |  Link
madshi
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For those of you guys who already have signs of withdrawal from the lack of dither testing, here's one more dither test build:

http://madshi.net/madVRlinearLightDithering.rar

The algorithms are basically the same as in v0.87.6, however, I've added Shiandow's linear light processing idea. The results look quite promising to me. At least switching between 8bit and 3bit doesn't brighten up the image, anymore. So it does exactly what it's supposed to do. Let me know what you think! FWIW, it will probably cost a bit of extra performance, but I hope it will not be too much. The test build always applies linear light processing for dithering, for both ordered dithering and the 2 error diffusion algorithms.
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Old 7th March 2014, 16:56   #24448  |  Link
James Freeman
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Wowee!!!

Looks very good.
It's very useful for folks with 6bit+FRC (and lower) panels to be 100% sure they get perfect gamma curve that visually matches the original content.
One of the fellows here even uses 5-bit for their projector... this build is very useful for him.

EDIT:
I've done more testing,
LL definitely looks closer to the the original content gamma-wise.
4-bit is watchable now (amazing for only 16 shades of grey), whether on Gamma light it was not representing the original picture correctly.

Can you please include 2-bit and 1-bit, or is it extremely unnecessary?
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Last edited by James Freeman; 7th March 2014 at 17:46.
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Old 7th March 2014, 18:09   #24449  |  Link
seiyafan
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So for 480 -> 1440, in terms of rendering time, doubling is faster because quadrupling involves another pass. But in terms of visual, which one is better? doubling and upscaling or quadrupling and downscaling?
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Old 7th March 2014, 18:57   #24450  |  Link
fairchild
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Originally Posted by seiyafan View Post
So for 480 -> 1440, in terms of rendering time, doubling is faster because quadrupling involves another pass. But in terms of visual, which one is better? doubling and upscaling or quadrupling and downscaling?
It also matters what scaling factor you are using which determines when/if doubling/quad scaling kicks in. I use the following on my 7870 to my 1080p plasma:

chroma upscaling: lanczos 3 (AR), image upscaling: lanczos 3 (AR)
image doubling:
use NNEDI3 to double luma if scaling 2.0x 32 neurons
use NNEDI3 to quadruple luma if scaling 3.0x 16 neurons
image downscaling: camtull-rom (AR+LL)

Basically doubling only kicks in on 960x540 and below and quadrupling only kicks in on 640x360 and below.
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Old 7th March 2014, 19:13   #24451  |  Link
GREG1292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
Wowee!!!

Looks very good.
It's very useful for folks with 6bit+FRC (and lower) panels to be 100% sure they get perfect gamma curve that visually matches the original content.
One of the fellows here even uses 5-bit for their projector... this build is very useful for him.

EDIT:
I've done more testing,
LL definitely looks closer to the the original content gamma-wise.
4-bit is watchable now (amazing for only 16 shades of grey), whether on Gamma light it was not representing the original picture correctly.

Can you please include 2-bit and 1-bit, or is it extremely unnecessary?

Can't wait to test. On vacation for 2 weeks so no testing for me
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Old 7th March 2014, 20:41   #24452  |  Link
Werewolfy
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Hmmm... According to the log, my hooks are installed correctly, but they do are not called somehow. Weird. It seems you've configured madVR to switch the display mode in the moment when you go fullscreen? What happens if you switch at the start of playback? Does that change anything? Probably not, just wondering...
Unfortunately you're right, it doesn't change anything. I noticed that other users are on Windows 8.1, I'm on Windows 8. Maybe it comes from there but I don't really want to install 8.1, some video games are not compatible with it...
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Old 7th March 2014, 20:51   #24453  |  Link
MistahBonzai
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post

if a calibrated screen is really important to you, you may should think about getting a colorimeter.
I have a good working knowledge of display calibration but have no tools other than a multitude of test files and a DIY color temperature adjustment aid (partitioned black box, grey card(s), 6500K light source..). bottom line is that I'm satisfied that my display gamma is ~2.25 - it varies slightly dependent on luminance.

Quote:
the best gamma should be choice n on your lightning condition in your room. typical 2.4 is what you want.
I adjust as needed although I'm in a well controled environment (dark room, 6500K backlight, no external light source falling on the screen).

Quote:
see above setting gamma in "calibration" should't have an effect without "color & gamma" settings.
In this case a picture is worth 1K words. Screen crop of my
calibration options. The color and gamma options are completely unselected.

Last edited by MistahBonzai; 7th March 2014 at 21:00. Reason: formating
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Old 7th March 2014, 21:09   #24454  |  Link
seiyafan
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I think I finally got it so I am going to answer my own question. For quadrupling the first pass uses the neurons number from doubling and the second pass uses the neurons number from quadrupling. I used to think both passes use neurons from quadrupling so that's why I asked that why would the number of doubling neurons even matter for quadrupling.

That's a mouthful but please correct me if I am wrong.
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Old 7th March 2014, 21:17   #24455  |  Link
cyberbeing
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Originally Posted by seiyafan View Post
For quadrupling the first pass uses the neurons number from doubling and the second pass uses the neurons number from quadrupling.
This is correct.
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Old 7th March 2014, 21:37   #24456  |  Link
JonnyRedHed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyRedHed View Post
I'm still getting a black screen every now and again which all but freezes zoom player. No crash reporter pops up. Apart from this little issue all is good.
madshi asked:
What does the task manager say about ZoomPlayer's CPU RAM consumption when it's frozen like that?



From the 3 times I observed it this afternoon before downgrading to 87.4, cpu ram was 600mb, 800mb, 400mb. When the cpu ram was highest, zoomplayer's crash was worse and required task manger to end process. Otherwise with the lower spikes I could 'esc' back to windowed mode and then click the zoomplayer 'x' to close it after it settled its self down. The video appears to still continue playing, audio can still be heard. I can click the screen once it goes black and playback will pause as normal and then resume with another click. No madvr crash reporter pops up, nor does zplayer crash window. Just a screen that goes black during playback, apparently at random.

This black screen, and very occasional white screen has never happened before in all my years of using zoomplayer and madvr.

With 0.87.4 this does not occur.

Last edited by JonnyRedHed; 7th March 2014 at 21:46.
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Old 7th March 2014, 22:07   #24457  |  Link
secvensor
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1600х1200@100MHz
Error Diffusion - option 2 enabled

no dropped frames on (windowed/full-screen mode):
MPEG1 640x480 30fps 104857kbps https://mega.co.nz/#!JF92jR6K!PlNXU3xJ01jO3D4cJBSFSn61aYl3zB-t3eZJdj9c0oo (the BEST test video)
MPEG4 (H264 8bit) 960x720 29.917fps 2561kbps
MPEG4 (H264 8bit) 1280x720 25fps 2698kbps
MPEG4 (H264 10bit) 1280x720 60fps 6582kbps
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Old 7th March 2014, 22:50   #24458  |  Link
MistahBonzai
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Originally Posted by secvensor View Post
variant 9
Oh well..it most likely needed it anyway

You're not using Zoom Player per chance are you? That could explain how you were able to jack-up all the madVR settings and still thought they were being utilized... I was able to playback '4K' files without tweaking settings (didn't even have to set the primaries/gamut in madVR (DCI-P3). Zoom player seems to have a means of dynamically shifting playback filtering when overloaded. It's automagical Of course you have no idea what settings are really in play
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Old 7th March 2014, 23:47   #24459  |  Link
leeperry
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For those of you guys who already have signs of withdrawal from the lack of dither testing
I guess I'd very much fancy the impression of depth of A4 with the low-noise of ED11.....you've gotten us to expect the impossible, so that's kinda your fault

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
The algorithms are basically the same as in v0.87.6, however, I've added Shiandow's linear light processing idea.
My initial impression with mono-static A4 is that killed the impression of depth on 720p content so I just spent quite some time comparing both builds in mono-static mode, with A4 on the bluray of Captain Harlock and ED11 on very crisp 30fps 1080p video content and in both cases the new build kills the sense of depth to my eyes...the wow factor is gone, PQ is pretty dull.

I guess an extra "use LL" checkbox would be great if it does anything good to anyone in dynamic/color mode but that's a no-go to my eyes in mono-static.
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Old 7th March 2014, 23:49   #24460  |  Link
Qaq
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
..here's one more dither test build:

http://madshi.net/madVRlinearLightDithering.rar

The algorithms are basically the same as in v0.87.6, however, I've added Shiandow's linear light processing idea.
Call me a videophile but this one seems to me a huge step in right direction. MadVR's picture never looked THAT transparent. I wonder if its even possible to make it better (should be!).
No way its just Catalyst (stripped to the bone) does tricks on me
I use ED1 with both options disabled.
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