BD Rebuilder Beta - Bug Reports Only

[SquallMX]

Hi, some of the Blu-rays from my country are really crappy, for example Planet 51 has an "all powerful" Dolby Digital 5.1 Spanish track at 256 Kbps!!!

But the problem is not the increased file size, is the not necessary re-encoding, I tested The Town Blu-ray disc, the dubs were Dolby Digital 5.1 at 448 Kbps, and the Director's Comment was Dolby 2.0 at 192 Kbps, these are DVD Compliant bitrates but BD-Rebuilder is re-encoding the tracks, that is my "bug report".

As for "reduces sound quality" -- I'd like to know how increasing bitrate ever decreases quality? All blu-ray to DVD 5.1 conversions reencode to 448Kbs, because 640Kbs (the overwhelming standard in blu-ray) violates the DVD spec.

Even if the encoding software is great, re-encoding a lossy source is always going to produce a lower quality output (acording to all the experts of Hydrogenaudio ), for example the original 5.1 tracks had a frecuency cut of 20 Khz, the Aften output had a cut of 16 Khz. But the point is, since the original tracks are already DVD Compliant why re-encode them?

Thanks for your time and your hard work, and sorry to bother you

[Sharc]

Originally Posted by jdobbs

I can assure you that the XML couldn't have been created in that format by BD-RB... odd, though that it exactly backwards from what BD-RB creates. I'm scratching my head on that one. I can't see how it could possibly be output that way based on the formatting I'm using to write the XML file.

I'm doing some checks to see if I can find a disc that acts similar to yours. The only one I've found so far was one that was doing animation... and it makes sense in that case because the picture is moved at regular intervals, and I ignore all but the first.

Part of the mystery is solved:
When the .xml is opened in Internet Explorer/XML editor, the sequence is reversed! When I open the .xml in a text editor, the sequence is as you expect it to be.

I tried another 720p disc, a BD9 movie only created by BD-RB from the original Blu ray disc. No preprocessing of the sups with the exception of selecting the 3 sup tracks of one language only for the BD9 backup. But still no luck with the subs for the Alternate DVD from this BD9 movie-only source. The start and end times in the .xml are correct, but now the subtitles have not been muxed into the .vobs. From the log:

- [01:26:51] Building ALTERNATE OUTPUT Structure
 - [01:29:05] Converting 3 subtitles to DVD format.
   - Unable to convert subtitle: 4608, ignored.
   - Unable to convert subtitle: 4609, ignored.
   - Unable to convert subtitle: 4610, ignored.
 - [01:31:46] Starting MPLEX.
 - [01:35:31] Building DVD File Structure.
[01:39:54] - Encode and Rebuild complete

My conclusion so far is that it seems not to work (for me) from re-authored 720p BD5/9 sources. Have you tried this case?
I'll try now using the original BluRay disc as source (although you have certainly tested it exhaustively, and other posters have reported success.... so something my be odd just here, and no point in wasting your time on it).

Edit 1:
Could the problem be related to the 23.976 to 25 fps PAL conversion? I am using ALTERNATE_PAL=1 (no adding of frames).

Edit 2:
The subtitles work when using the original BluRay as source rather than the 720p movie-only backup as in my previous tests. However they loose sync, I suspect because of the 23.976 to 25 fps video conversion with ALTERNATE_PAL=1.
I think if I accept ghosted frames (ALTERNATE_PAL=0) the sync of the subtitles would be maintained.

[jdobbs]

Originally Posted by Sharc

Part of the mystery is solved:
When the .xml is opened in Internet Explorer/XML editor, the sequence is reversed! When I open the .xml in a text editor, the sequence is as you expect it to be.

I tried another 720p disc, a BD9 movie only created by BD-RB from the original Blu ray disc. No preprocessing of the sups with the exception of selecting the 3 sup tracks of one language only for the BD9 backup. But still no luck with the subs for the Alternate DVD from this BD9 movie-only source. The start and end times in the .xml are correct, but now the subtitles have not been muxed into the .vobs. From the log:

- [01:26:51] Building ALTERNATE OUTPUT Structure
 - [01:29:05] Converting 3 subtitles to DVD format.
   - Unable to convert subtitle: 4608, ignored.
   - Unable to convert subtitle: 4609, ignored.
   - Unable to convert subtitle: 4610, ignored.
 - [01:31:46] Starting MPLEX.
 - [01:35:31] Building DVD File Structure.
[01:39:54] - Encode and Rebuild complete

My conclusion so far is that it seems not to work (for me) from re-authored 720p BD5/9 sources. Have you tried this case?
I'll try now using the original BluRay disc as source (although you have certainly tested it exhaustively, and other posters have reported success.... so something my be odd just here, and no point in wasting your time on it).

Edit 1:
Could the problem be related to the 23.976 to 25 fps PAL conversion? I am using ALTERNATE_PAL=1 (no adding of frames).

Edit 2:
The subtitles work when using the original BluRay as source rather than the 720p movie-only backup as in my previous tests. However they loose sync, I suspect because of the 23.976 to 25 fps video conversion with ALTERNATE_PAL=1.
I think if I accept ghosted frames (ALTERNATE_PAL=0) the sync of the subtitles would be maintained.

I'll do some testing using 720p sources as well as setting ALTERNATE_PAL=1 and see how it goes.

[jdobbs]

Originally Posted by SquallMX

Hi, some of the Blu-rays from my country are really crappy, for example Planet 51 has an "all powerful" Dolby Digital 5.1 Spanish track at 256 Kbps!!!

But the problem is not the increased file size, is the not necessary re-encoding, I tested The Town Blu-ray disc, the dubs were Dolby Digital 5.1 at 448 Kbps, and the Director's Comment was Dolby 2.0 at 192 Kbps, these are DVD Compliant bitrates but BD-Rebuilder is re-encoding the tracks, that is my "bug report".



Even if the encoding software is great, re-encoding a lossy source is always going to produce a lower quality output (acording to all the experts of Hydrogenaudio ), for example the original 5.1 tracks had a frecuency cut of 20 Khz, the Aften output had a cut of 16 Khz. But the point is, since the original tracks are already DVD Compliant why re-encode them?

Thanks for your time and your hard work, and sorry to bother you

I'll put a header check into the process and if the original AC3 source is DVD compliant it will not be reencoded. I find it hard to fathom, though, why an original commercial BD (that hasn't been preprocessed) would be authored at 256Kbs for a 5.1 track? It saves almost nothing and can seriously hurt quality at that bitrate.

Oh well, I guess there is no limit to the lunacy of some disc authoring houses.

I do doubt seriously, though, that any human ears could detect a quality drop for a source that was reencoded at a higher bitrate than the original. I realize that any reencoding could result in some degradation -- but if a human can't hear it, does it really matter? But... if it doesn't have to be reencoded, there's really no reason to do it, so I'll add the check. It'll keep the purists happy.

Hmm... that reminds me of a saying: "If a man speaks in the forest and there is no woman there to hear him -- is he still wrong?"

[Capsbackup]

Originally Posted by jdobbs

Hmm... that reminds me of a saying: "If a man speaks in the forest and there is no woman there to hear him -- is he still wrong?"

If he speaks with a crooked tong! But really, is there a place a man can speak that he may not be heard? by a woman?

....................................................

I admire your efforts to make BD-RB so multi-functional, even with these distractions!

[setarip_old]

@jdobbs

Hmm... that reminds me of a saying: "If a man speaks in the forest and there is no woman there to hear him -- is he still wrong?"

Only her attorney knows for sure ;>}

[jdobbs]

@Sharc

Originally Posted by jdobbs

I'll do some testing using 720p sources as well as setting ALTERNATE_PAL=1 and see how it goes.

Well, it doesn't appear to have anything to do with ALTERNATE_PAL=1. I just did a feature to PAL and the subtitles are perfect. I'll create a 720p source and run it against that next. Honestly, though, I can't imagine why that would cause issues... but you never know.

[Sharc]

Originally Posted by jdobbs

@Sharc
Well, it doesn't appear to have anything to do with ALTERNATE_PAL=1. I just did a feature to PAL and the subtitles are perfect. I'll create a 720p source and run it against that next. Honestly, though, I can't imagine why that would cause issues... but you never know.

Interesting, thanks for your reply.
I found the time stamps in the XML to be the same as those of the original 23.976 fps .sup file. Therefore I concluded that this could be the reason for the sync loss with the 25fps (speed up) PAL DVD backup.

[jdobbs]

Originally Posted by Sharc

Interesting, thanks for your reply.
I found the time stamps in the XML to be the same as those of the original 23.976 fps .sup file. Therefore I concluded that this could be the reason for the sync loss with the 25fps (speed up) PAL DVD backup.

Ignore what I said... I was mistaken and somehow I did it without ALTERNATE_PAL set. I'm about to start it again.

[jdobbs]

Originally Posted by Sharc

Interesting, thanks for your reply.
I found the time stamps in the XML to be the same as those of the original 23.976 fps .sup file. Therefore I concluded that this could be the reason for the sync loss with the 25fps (speed up) PAL DVD backup.

Yep, you're right. I wasn't accounting for the slight speedup involved in ALTERNATE_PAL... I've fixed it for the next release. Now on to 720p sources.

[rccland]

Originally Posted by rccland

Yea DIE ANOTHER DAY is MPEG-4 AVC and as mentioned above CASINO ROYALE is also MPEG-4 AVC. Which would make sense since both BOND movies come from MGM. But as I mentioned before CASINO ROYALE WORKS FINE!

Just an update. I re-installed everything. Got a new DIE ANOTHER DISC but same result failted to encode. I do have some new information. I tried playing the m2ts file in VLC and i cant see the video and the audio is choppy and goes in and out constantly. This makes me believe there might be some codec issues. Any clue what codec if any I am missing. I thought by installing all the recommended software with BD-Rebuilder would be sufficient?

[jdobbs]

Originally Posted by rccland

Just an update. I re-installed everything. Got a new DIE ANOTHER DISC but same result failted to encode. I do have some new information. I tried playing the m2ts file in VLC and i cant see the video and the audio is choppy and goes in and out constantly. This makes me believe there might be some codec issues. Any clue what codec if any I am missing. I thought by installing all the recommended software with BD-Rebuilder would be sufficient?

Normally it is. But when you have other video related software packages installed, sometimes they bypass windows settings and intercept things on their own. They shouldn't do that, but they do -- and most of the time they do it without even giving you a warning.

If you have any "Codec Packs" installed (they're often at fault) -- get rid of them.

[A.Fenderson]

Originally Posted by A.Fenderson

I Am Legend: reencode to BD25, @ ~18:10 into the .m2ts of the alternate version of the film (00006.m2ts), video pauses briefly then turns grey, audio continues uninterrupted, video resumes moments later but behind the audio by about the amount of time the video had been frozen and greyed out.

Just an FYI/update: RAM tested good and I absolutely confirmed I wasn't overclocked. Second encode attempt, after enabling WMP11 VC1 decode on Win XP, gave exact same results. Turns out it was a problem with the rip (I used the same rip both times) that was almost unnoticeable during playback (except on frame-advance), and appeared just as fairly minor macroblock issues on only about 3 consecutive and otherwise noisy frames when playing back the original rip. I always decrypt and rip via AnyDVD-HD, and I don't know if the problem is there, the drive, or the disc, but this time I'm ripping with Teracopy in "copy & test" mode. Sorry for (further) cluttering up the bug thread, but I thought maybe my experience might help others track down and eliminate non-BD-RB issues.

[jdobbs]

Originally Posted by A.Fenderson

Just an FYI/update: RAM tested good and I absolutely confirmed I wasn't overclocked. Second encode attempt, after enabling WMP11 VC1 decode on Win XP, gave exact same results. Turns out it was a problem with the rip (I used the same rip both times) that was almost unnoticeable during playback (except on frame-advance), and appeared just as fairly minor macroblock issues on only about 3 consecutive and otherwise noisy frames when playing back the original rip. I always decrypt and rip via AnyDVD-HD, and I don't know if the problem is there, the drive, or the disc, but this time I'm ripping with Teracopy in "copy & test" mode. Sorry for (further) cluttering up the bug thread, but I thought maybe my experience might help others track down and eliminate non-BD-RB issues.

Thanks for the update. Good to know.

[Race Guy]

Here's an FYI for you jdobbs.....

I've settled on 24250MB as my "custom" size for BD-25 backups. I'm usually at 99% when I load the finished project into ImgBurn "build". If you wave your cursor over the finished folder in Win7, the pop up will usually say between 22.8 & 23.1 GB. VERY consistent!

Then I tried the flick "Night Of The Hunter" in 37.04. With that 24250 target, full BU. I got 23.8 GB, which is WAY over! I dialed back to 23450MB (-800MB) & then I got my 23.0, just as you'd expect.

For the heck of it, last week I tried it again in 37.07 at 24250 & got the same 800MB over size.

There's nothing out of the ordinary on the flick. The main audio is LPCM 1.0, which is all I kept. Let me know if you want any more info.

[worknstiff]

@Race Guy, I too use around that size (24300 for me) for my rebuilds. That has worked out really great for most of my "Movie Only" backups, but not all of them. Occasionally it has gone over but if I try to do a " Full" backup, I back it back down to around 24,200 or 24,150. I have never had any go over by more than 1 or 2 hundred megabytes and that was usually on the series type disks where I had to do "Full" rebuilds to get all the episodes. I have always wondered how BD_Rebuilder figures out what is an extra on the series disks because there is no clear cut extra since all the episodes are the same size. I had a series disk recently with five 47:00 minute episodes on it, and a special feature that was 27 minutes long. The first time I ran it thru BD_Rebuilder the original 27 minute extra .m2ts on the 46gig disk was 8 gigs. After the rebuild it still used 3.4 gigs of my 25gig backup, and each 47 minute episode was around 4.1 gigs. I thought that was way too much space that could better be used for the real episodes. I took the all the extras from 3 of the original disks and created a MultiAVCHD BD and ran it thru BD_Rebuilder to create a BD5 disk. The original 8 gig size was squeezed down to just 3 gigs and after replacing it into the original 46gig disk and then BD_Rebuilding it, the size was now 500 MB's. Even after all this it was still good enough to watch. The oversize problem is just when you have lots of extra content to try to compress that gives BD_Rebuilder a problem, and I'm sure if left on the default setting of 23400 it would probably never oversize.

[Sharc]

@jdobbs
BD-RB v0.37.08 (beta). Source is BluRay 24 fps. Backup to BD5 720p, movie only.

.........
- [00:19:45] Performing CRF Prediction...
   - Analyzing 11.00 30.50 25.09 21.61 19.72 19.06 [18.95]
 - [00:36:04] Encoding using constant rate factor.
 - [04:20:42] Video Encode complete
 - [04:20:42] Reencoding audio tracks (if req'd)
 - [04:25:06] Multiplexing M2TS
 - [04:27:53] Extracting A/V streams [VID_00012]
 - [04:27:54] Reencoding: VID_00012 (2 of 2)
 - [04:27:54] Collecting video information
   - Source Video: MPEG-4 (AVC), 1920x1080
   - Rate/Length: 24.000fps, 24 frames
   - Convert: 1280x720, 24.000fps, 24 frames
 - [04:27:55] Reencoding: VID_00012, Pass 1 of 1
 - [04:27:57] Video Encode complete
 - [04:27:57] Multiplexing M2TS
[04:27:57]PHASE ONE complete
[04:27:57]PHASE TWO - Rebuild Started
 - [04:27:57] Rebuilding AVCHD file Structure
   - Non-text or anomalous PGS 00011.track_4608.sup ignored.
[04:30:28] 
- Encode and Rebuild complete

The 1920x1080 .sup which has been extracted from the original looks ok.
In the working directory a 0-byte file 00011.track_4608-rz.sup has been created.

[jdobbs]

Originally Posted by Sharc

@jdobbs
BD-RB v0.37.08 (beta). Source is BluRay 24 fps. Backup to BD5 720p, movie only.

.........
- [00:19:45] Performing CRF Prediction...
   - Analyzing 11.00 30.50 25.09 21.61 19.72 19.06 [18.95]
 - [00:36:04] Encoding using constant rate factor.
 - [04:20:42] Video Encode complete
 - [04:20:42] Reencoding audio tracks (if req'd)
 - [04:25:06] Multiplexing M2TS
 - [04:27:53] Extracting A/V streams [VID_00012]
 - [04:27:54] Reencoding: VID_00012 (2 of 2)
 - [04:27:54] Collecting video information
   - Source Video: MPEG-4 (AVC), 1920x1080
   - Rate/Length: 24.000fps, 24 frames
   - Convert: 1280x720, 24.000fps, 24 frames
 - [04:27:55] Reencoding: VID_00012, Pass 1 of 1
 - [04:27:57] Video Encode complete
 - [04:27:57] Multiplexing M2TS
[04:27:57]PHASE ONE complete
[04:27:57]PHASE TWO - Rebuild Started
 - [04:27:57] Rebuilding AVCHD file Structure
   - Non-text or anomalous PGS 00011.track_4608.sup ignored.
[04:30:28] 
- Encode and Rebuild complete

The 1920x1080 .sup which has been extracted from the original looks ok.
In the working directory a 0-byte file 00011.track_4608-rz.sup has been created.

If it's what I think it is, I've fixed that one. It turns out that certain larger images (typically non-subtitle -- usually pop-up graphics) can't be handled by the SPUMUX in v0.6.18. In the next release I've upgraded to v0.7.0 and it seems to have corrected the one instance that I've found the issue.

[area51reopened]

Having no issues with the latest beta and the other tools and their versions you recommend!Lite on bluray burner 212.I am burning movie only 25 gig discs memorex brand,with no coasters, and no errors on your end!QUALITY of your software is amazing 5 stars!

[jdobbs]

Originally Posted by area51reopened

Having no issues with the latest beta and the other tools and their versions you recommend!Lite on bluray burner 212.I am burning movie only 25 gig discs memorex brand,with no coasters, and no errors on your end!QUALITY of your software is amazing 5 stars!

Great to hear.