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14th May 2009, 21:32 | #2101 | Link |
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Thanks for the .backup fix, tools directory went from 174 MB to 96 MB.
I have another suggestion which is checking reference frames against the level to prevent illegal files like avc level checker is intended to do but it's inaccurate which is discussed here. But instead of avc level checker could it check within x264 config like it already does with vbv? Also if vbv is left empty but a level is defined can it set the vbv maxrate and buffer to the maximum allowed for the level? |
14th May 2009, 22:12 | #2102 | Link |
Mr. Sandman
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VBV should NEVER be set until the user chooses to set it. megui will warn you if you set the buffers too high.
the inaccuracy is there to "protect" from b-pyramid problems.
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MPEG-4 ASP Custom Matrices: EQM V1(old), EQM AutoGK Sharpmatrix (aka EQM V2), EQM V3HR (updated 01/10/2004), EQM V3LR, EQM V3ULR (updated 04/02/2005), EQM V3UHR (updated 17/12/2004) and EQM V3EHR (updated 05/10/2004) Info about my ASP matrices. MPEG-4 AVC Custom Matrices: EQM AVC-HR Info about my AVC matrices My x264 builds. Mooo!!! |
14th May 2009, 22:42 | #2103 | Link | |
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If you take a 90 minute high action movie, set it to L4.1 and encode for BD25 output without any vbv you are likely to exceed the maximum bitrate and it will skip at times. Same can be said for DVD9 target but to a lesser extent. What b-pyramid issue are you talking about? 1920x1080 24fps up to --ref 4 with and without b-pyramid is allowed in L4.x According to AVC Level Checker 1920x1080 24fps L4 max is --ref 3 without b-pyramid or --ref 2 with b-pyramid. 1280x720 24fps up to --ref 9 with and without b-pyramid is allowed in L4.x According to AVC Level Checker 1280x720 24fps L4 max is --ref 8 without b-pyramid or --ref 7 with b-pyramid. |
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14th May 2009, 22:55 | #2104 | Link |
Mr. Sandman
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coz you dont want restrictions on ratecontrol if you dont need them. they would harm final quality.
b-pyramid problems are playback problems on hardware devices (DPB violations). if you add b-pyramid you should lower the refs by 1 to ensure compatibility. AFAIK that's a x264 problem. btw, regarding the level checking in the config, it's not manageable since megui doesnt know about input file properties during the encoder configuration.
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MPEG-4 ASP Custom Matrices: EQM V1(old), EQM AutoGK Sharpmatrix (aka EQM V2), EQM V3HR (updated 01/10/2004), EQM V3LR, EQM V3ULR (updated 04/02/2005), EQM V3UHR (updated 17/12/2004) and EQM V3EHR (updated 05/10/2004) Info about my ASP matrices. MPEG-4 AVC Custom Matrices: EQM AVC-HR Info about my AVC matrices My x264 builds. Mooo!!! Last edited by Sharktooth; 14th May 2009 at 23:06. |
15th May 2009, 00:22 | #2105 | Link | |||
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If someone is setting level aren't they using it for a specific device that requires these types of level restrictions? What I suggest wouldn't affect anything if you aren't setting level or vbv is already compliant. Quote:
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Last edited by turbojet; 15th May 2009 at 00:55. |
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15th May 2009, 01:04 | #2106 | Link | ||
Mr. Sandman
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it's not debatable. setting VBV params forces the ratecontrol to behave in a different way and setting a level means setting a flag in a bitstream. if you want to specify VBV limits you can always do it.
about b-pyramid and DPB stuff, it was changed but it's still not perfect and still causes problems. as you can read on the megui presets thread: Quote:
so, dont argue with me about b-pyramid... i will never consider it a reliable option... it's not even so usefull... i prefer one more b-frame or even one more ref instead... Quote:
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MPEG-4 ASP Custom Matrices: EQM V1(old), EQM AutoGK Sharpmatrix (aka EQM V2), EQM V3HR (updated 01/10/2004), EQM V3LR, EQM V3ULR (updated 04/02/2005), EQM V3UHR (updated 17/12/2004) and EQM V3EHR (updated 05/10/2004) Info about my ASP matrices. MPEG-4 AVC Custom Matrices: EQM AVC-HR Info about my AVC matrices My x264 builds. Mooo!!! Last edited by Sharktooth; 15th May 2009 at 01:33. |
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15th May 2009, 01:46 | #2107 | Link | |||
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15th May 2009, 01:58 | #2108 | Link | ||||
Mr. Sandman
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MPEG-4 ASP Custom Matrices: EQM V1(old), EQM AutoGK Sharpmatrix (aka EQM V2), EQM V3HR (updated 01/10/2004), EQM V3LR, EQM V3ULR (updated 04/02/2005), EQM V3UHR (updated 17/12/2004) and EQM V3EHR (updated 05/10/2004) Info about my ASP matrices. MPEG-4 AVC Custom Matrices: EQM AVC-HR Info about my AVC matrices My x264 builds. Mooo!!! Last edited by Sharktooth; 15th May 2009 at 02:01. |
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15th May 2009, 07:12 | #2109 | Link | ||
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Thanks for your replies.
I apologize for not being specific in my initial post. The file I am encoding is from one of my anime DVDs. It's not that the whole encode is crappier, only the beginning of the episode, which starts with a static scene, and then cuts to another static scene. On the Q6600 encodes, those 2 static scenes seem blockier (noisier) when compared to the old Dell encode. The rest of the encode, including future static scenes, seem fine afterwards. What gets me is why are the aforementioned static scenes encoded on my Q6600 blockier than those of my old Dell encode? I have attached screenshots taken using MPC of the two static scenes I am talking about. The noise in the first scene is subtle, but you can clearly see the difference between the 2nd static scene. Of course, when watching it in full screen, the differences stand out much more. In addition, when I encode the video using 2-pass xvid encoder with same bitrate on the Q6600, the 2 static scenes are the same quality as the Dell encode. It seems only when I use x264 encoder on my Q6600, I get crappier results. Boggles the mind. Quote:
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I can rule out the decoding issue for playback, because I took the old Dell encoded file and played it on my Q6600 and it looks great, just like on my Dell. I played the Q6600 encoded video on the Q6600 and the old dell and it looks the same: blockier static screens at the beginning of the video. Last edited by userix; 15th May 2009 at 10:06. |
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15th May 2009, 17:09 | #2110 | Link | |||
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If not do you know how much higher bitrate they can decode? Also if not leaving blank vbv may produce a skipping/unplayable output and the current situation of allowing up to vbv max doesn't help the matter. Looking at megui presets all of the cellphone profiles seem to follow level standards. Quote:
While b-pyramid may or may not be fixed how it should be, it doesn't seem to hinder playback anymore which is what the DPB formula only concern is. Quote:
Last edited by turbojet; 15th May 2009 at 17:12. |
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15th May 2009, 17:28 | #2111 | Link |
Mr. Sandman
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it depends on the device chipset or the software. for example, some media players/decoder want level 4.1 streams or they wont use DXVA. however they're capable of decoding streams with different limits from the L4.1...
the megui presets for cellphones and PDAs come as standard presets at levels 1.0, 1.1, 1.2 and 1.3. but it's not a secret there are cellphones that support level 1.x at much higher bitrate limits. about the DPB, it was never fixed. the discussion ended with that thread and, if you read it, there is a chance the encode will be played back... but you can NEVER be sure since x264 continues to violate the DPB. the VBV retrictions are FIXED by profile/level. they do not depend on res or fps, so they are checked when you create the preset. if you specify an invalid VBV rate for the specified profile/level, megui will warn you. i cant see a reason to change that behaviour.
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MPEG-4 ASP Custom Matrices: EQM V1(old), EQM AutoGK Sharpmatrix (aka EQM V2), EQM V3HR (updated 01/10/2004), EQM V3LR, EQM V3ULR (updated 04/02/2005), EQM V3UHR (updated 17/12/2004) and EQM V3EHR (updated 05/10/2004) Info about my ASP matrices. MPEG-4 AVC Custom Matrices: EQM AVC-HR Info about my AVC matrices My x264 builds. Mooo!!! |
15th May 2009, 17:43 | #2112 | Link | ||||
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15th May 2009, 18:17 | #2113 | Link |
Mr. Sandman
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the only DXVA decoder that can handle levels OVER 4.1 is MPC-HC AVC decoder. other decoders require Level 4.1 (just the flag on the bitstream!!!).
Some nokia phones and other phones (cant remember the models) have enough CPU power to decode AVC at levels higher than 1 or 1.x but are limited to those levels. you can safely encode at bitrate higher than level 1 or 1.x and the phone is perfectly able to play back the encode. Again, x264 still violates the DPB. there is no entry in the changelog that says it was fixed. HENCE IT'S STILL BROKEN. VBV restrictions are fixed by level/profile: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264#Levels That said, the discussion is over. You're speaking of something you dont even understand and i have no time to waste.
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MPEG-4 ASP Custom Matrices: EQM V1(old), EQM AutoGK Sharpmatrix (aka EQM V2), EQM V3HR (updated 01/10/2004), EQM V3LR, EQM V3ULR (updated 04/02/2005), EQM V3UHR (updated 17/12/2004) and EQM V3EHR (updated 05/10/2004) Info about my ASP matrices. MPEG-4 AVC Custom Matrices: EQM AVC-HR Info about my AVC matrices My x264 builds. Mooo!!! Last edited by Sharktooth; 15th May 2009 at 18:20. |
15th May 2009, 18:30 | #2114 | Link |
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When level is set in megui the vbv is not touched thus level does not fix vbv!
But ok I guess there still will not be a gui that has full range of settings and ensures the file will be within spec. The threads and posts concerning this problem will continue to flood this forum. Granted it shouldn't be gui's responsibility to fix x264's caveats but most people seem to think it should be. |
15th May 2009, 19:51 | #2115 | Link |
Mr. Sandman
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As i said, AVC Level checker is just a CHECKER. it wont change any parameters you set except for the fact that it wont permit the user to specify a level and non coherent parameters/options.
By that purpouse it will warn you when you select it, plus another check is run when you set up the preset... and if something is not coherent it will switch level to unrestricted/autoguess. THIS WONT CHANGE coz it is the only LOGIC thing to do. Also there is only 1 person that rised this (not a-)problem and that person is you. So, by logic, im correct in stating your conclusion are illogical. MeGUI is not an one click solution software. Users MUST KNOW what they're doing and looking for a table on wikipedia is not even so hard... expecially when it's the first hit when you type "AVC Levels" on google...
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MPEG-4 ASP Custom Matrices: EQM V1(old), EQM AutoGK Sharpmatrix (aka EQM V2), EQM V3HR (updated 01/10/2004), EQM V3LR, EQM V3ULR (updated 04/02/2005), EQM V3UHR (updated 17/12/2004) and EQM V3EHR (updated 05/10/2004) Info about my ASP matrices. MPEG-4 AVC Custom Matrices: EQM AVC-HR Info about my AVC matrices My x264 builds. Mooo!!! Last edited by Sharktooth; 15th May 2009 at 20:12. |
15th May 2009, 20:19 | #2116 | Link |
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I never suggested changing VBV to not autoguess when it's set higher then the level refers to, this will produce a compliant file however there are many situations where x264 and megui won't output a compliant file.
I'm not sure you understand what I'm suggesting which is to ensure that when level is used the file complies to that level. Currently the only thing it does is restrict vbv which is a start. The inaccurate avc level checker is pretty much hidden and a lot of megui users don't even know it exists. The problem is every few days there's another post on this forum about a file not playing on their device m mainly due to too many references and resolution but vbv also comes up at times. I thought of a solution to all but the resolution problem and this is it. If someone has a better solution I'm all ears. If/when megui outputs AVCHD/BD these issues will get even more and more popular and they'll directly point to MeGUI wouldn't you like to prevent these posts? Profiles help but there's always people who are going to change things on a whim, some guide told them, etc. There is one common thing between H.264 encoders and H.264 devices and that's level, an encoder that complies to it is much more user-friendly then one that doesn't. |
16th May 2009, 14:51 | #2118 | Link | |||||
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the user should also get informed on what he's doing. megui is not a software for the first idiot that thinks encoding is just a matter of some random mouse clicks. Quote:
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MPEG-4 ASP Custom Matrices: EQM V1(old), EQM AutoGK Sharpmatrix (aka EQM V2), EQM V3HR (updated 01/10/2004), EQM V3LR, EQM V3ULR (updated 04/02/2005), EQM V3UHR (updated 17/12/2004) and EQM V3EHR (updated 05/10/2004) Info about my ASP matrices. MPEG-4 AVC Custom Matrices: EQM AVC-HR Info about my AVC matrices My x264 builds. Mooo!!! |
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16th May 2009, 19:46 | #2119 | Link | ||||
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16th May 2009, 20:56 | #2120 | Link | ||
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Since I wrote the checker, this argument sparked my interest.
You asked Quote:
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Clicking around in the latest version a bit I noted that selecting a level no longer enforces the constraints that can be enforced.. I guess you can have a different opinion on that, but my approach with enforcing meant you lose flexibility so it appears the current developers opted for flexibility in that case - and it's really an either or decision.. you cannot have both. Given megui's history I understand why the choice went into the current direction - non experienced users can use the premade presets and the tools to facilitate encoding whereas all options are open to the advanced users who know what they're doing. I suppose you could have a setting "I know what I'm doing" and only allow people to change codec configurations, write scripts and the likes when that's checked, but it's a lot of work trying to force people who don't know better to not hurt themselves.
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