How to achieve "film look" on PAL DV source - Page 2

scharfis_brain · 9th January 2005, 15:33

Very interesting!
Do all of your mentioned Cams show this behaviour?
May that be a decompression problem on your side?

i can post frames if you like.
I do.
But some frames of untouched DV I would like even more.

CraigBjorn · 9th January 2005, 21:37

Film look isn't just something you can do with a push of a few buttons... if you look at even the pictures on the review site they all have at least good composition and lighting. The things you can do to make it look more like film are those sharpening, denoising, and deinterlacing tecniques which are more than plentiful on these boards.

However, I think a very crucucial part to film is the coloring. And anyone good with curves knows how useful they can be to making anwesome picture. The only downside to the current implimitations of curves is that we only have photoshops curves availible for import. If there were a way to import giimp curves I think that would be at least one step closer to a fully free alternative to things like magic bullet.

Didée · 10th January 2005, 01:11

Quote:

Originally posted by CraigBjorn
The only downside .. is that we only have photoshops curves availible for import. If there were a way to import giimp curves ..

Photoshop curves. Gimp curves. What about CorelDraw curves? Or PaintShop curves? Personally, I'd like to see PictureWindow curves. Others might prefer even other applications.

I dislike the hooking to specific formats of specific applications. There should be something like a general curve generator. Basically, it's already there: the "adjust.dll" plugin. Call the filter with your control points as parameter, get the resulting curve. Really a pity that it's "yuy2 only" ... [HINT!]

E-Male · 10th January 2005, 13:18

i'm busy atm

i'll see next week if i can add something here

E-Male · 10th January 2005, 14:49

ok, i couldn't rersist and i think i even got something (very simple but) usefull done this time

Quote:

Originally posted by Didée
...a pity that it's "yuy2 only" ... [HINT!]

http://e-rels.dyndns.org/downloads/adjust.dll

AdjustRGB("R", "G", "B")

needs rgb input (else it'll act like AdjustY using R as Y)

please test

direct gimp input to follow later

E-Male · 10th January 2005, 15:21

Gimp color curve file to AdustRGB parameters guide

# GIMP Curves File
0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 255 255
0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 206 255 -1 255 -1 255 -1 255
0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 255 183
0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 57 255 -1 255 -1 255 -1 -1 -1 255 -1 -1 -1 255 -1 255 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 255 -1 255 -1 252
0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 255 255

adjustrgb("spline(R,0,0,206,255,255,255 )", "spline(G,0,0,255,183 )", "spline(B,0,0,57,255,255,255 )")

2 numbers are always a pair
just copy them to the parmaters and replace spaces by commas
-1 means same as before, don't put that into AdustRGB (there seems to be no -1s at 255 for whatever reason)

value and alpha (first and last line of numbers) aren't supported (yet)

E-Male · 10th January 2005, 19:16

automation is done:
http://e-rels.dyndns.org/downloads/gccp.exe
example:
gccp c:/gimp/testcurve.txt
i wasn't able to put my file-reading code into the plug-in, yet (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88041)

CraigBjorn · 10th January 2005, 22:52

Wow, that was amazingly quick, I'll have to test it as soon as I have time... the only reasons I had suggest Gimp over anything else was because it's open source, and the spline curve is easily readable, thanx.

E-Male · 10th January 2005, 23:13

don't say thx to me before testing
this is very likly to be wrong in some places

for example one thing i'm not sure how to handle atm is this:
sometimes only the 1st of the 2 values in a pair is -1
i can't use that pair, because spline in avisynth won't work with 2 equal x values
but that means that i loose the second value

besides those things i plan to optimize the plug-in as soon as i have file reading added
gotta get rid of the envoke

Macanudo · 11th January 2005, 08:27

Thank You E-Male!

I am having difficulty with my Windows install at the moment, and it looks as if I am going to have to do a clean installation. I will have to wait until I have resolved the windows situation to do any testing.

I think this has the potential to be a "very powerful" effects tool. Combined with the de-interlacing solution of your choice, Didee's Limited Sharpen, Gaussian Blur, and Overlay we now have a free alternative to the $1000 "magic bullet suite".

As soon as I have addressed my Windows problem, I will test and post my results and the Gimp Curves I used.

Again,
Thank You

Also, Thank you to Didee, MugFunky and others who contributed.

DSP8000 · 11th January 2005, 11:41

As I stated in my first post "AVIsynth Gurus"

, amazing.
Very helpfull people, I didn't test your stuff e-male but looks promising.
Of course if we can get other people involved in the process the plugin could do unreal job.
Tnx. for spending time for this.

DSP8000

Mug Funky · 11th January 2005, 12:04

Quote:

some frames of untouched DV I would like even more.

http://mugfunky.no-ip.info/panasonic_NV-DS15.rar (1,049 KB)

captured direct through fahwah to hard disk. you can hear some piss-boring english history doco in the background probably

file is only available while i'm online.

i dug up a test pattern and printed it out, but didn't use a tripod or anything. even so, it should be clear that there's a bit of stairstepping going on. the effect is horribly clear when you separate fields (to eliminate the distraction of interlacing) and look at it like that. also note the horrible rainbows!

please note this is SP mode (though the result is identical in LP or SP regarding the stairstepping).

i'm not sure if there's some hardware deshaking going on, but i've shot stuff without it before that has this same effect.

[edit]

to remove all possible doubt, run this script:

Code:

separatefields()

subtract(last,last.blur(1).blur(1))
coloryuv(cont_y=512)

Macanudo · 11th January 2005, 16:01

If anyone is interested in testing E-Male's plugin you should check out this site FootageFirm.com. There is some freely downloadable uncompressed DV footage on the site.

This way we can all use the same clips to do our testing.

E-Male · 11th January 2005, 23:13

http://e-rels.dyndns.org/downloads/adjustgimp.dll

example:
adjustgimp("c:/gimp/curve1.txt")

the good things:
-reads gimp color curve files directly
-reads and uses all 5 lines

the bad things:
-untested!! (i hope you guys will do)
-not sure at all if i interpret everything correct (waiting for tests)
-still not sure what to do if only the x coordiante is "-1" (for now dropping the pair)
-no handling of mistyped filenames! (be carefull and remember: "/" not "\")
-still using envoke (gonna put in the spline code later)

Mug Funky · 12th January 2005, 02:29

it doesn't appear to be using the luma curve properly, but the colour curves seem to be working okay. (i do contrast adjustment on the luma curve, but colour balance on the r,g,and b curves).

but i've got a gimp curve that looks pretty good so far. need to test it on more images though.

E-Male · 12th January 2005, 03:02

i use the first curve on R, G and B
but i guess i need to be corrected on that

Macanudo · 12th January 2005, 06:36

I couldn't wait until I fixed my machine to test AdjustGimp, so I am on a friends rig.

I think Mug Funky is right about the value curve not being applied correctly. I used the identical frame in each test.

I took a screen shot plugged it into "The Gimp" and generated a color curve. I then took the curve and plugged it into AdjustGimp.

Here are some screen shots of my results. I am using the boats clip for the source I posted in my above reply.

Original Screen Shot (frame#360)

Gimp Curve (frame#360)

AdustGimp Curve (frame#360)

Here is the curve file I used.
# GIMP Curves File
0 0 -1 44 28 43 -1 65 67 96 -1 93 -1 65 -1 140 121 139 -1 -1 -1 204 -1 201 192 190 213 224 -1 221 -1 242 255 255
0 0 -1 56 -1 47 -1 34 61 35 -1 -1 -1 118 -1 110 128 99 -1 98 162 193 -1 213 189 241 -1 236 -1 226 -1 -1 255 255
0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 49 63 45 -1 47 100 92 -1 149 121 149 151 191 -1 186 -1 192 196 233 -1 228 -1 -1 -1 -1 255 255
0 0 21 38 -1 35 -1 -1 63 53 -1 66 104 65 117 139 -1 138 148 201 -1 203 -1 203 -1 198 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 255 255
0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 255 255

I notice alot of -1 values in several pairings. Could that be the source of the problem? If so would it be ok to manually change those -1 pairings to 0 or 1?

E-Male · 12th January 2005, 06:53

if send a mail with questions to the gimp developer maling list
i hope to get the needed info from there to fix that

(-1,-1)-pairs are ignored, which should be correct
what i'm not sure is what to do with (-1,x)-pairs [x>0]
for now i just ignore them, too, which doesn't feel too right

also i'm not sure how to use the value curve at all
so my code for it might be just all wrong

i'll update the dll as soon as i got new infomation to work with

Mug Funky · 12th January 2005, 07:13

hmm... by playing with the curve file in textpad and loading it into the gimp, it seems pairs of the form -1,x are ignored, but pairs of the form x,-1 and x,-y are actually plotted with a negative value. also, pairs of the form -x,y are done this way (the curve goes off the screen in these cases it seems).

in fact, there's a lot of points in a curve file that don't seem to be used. i wonder what they're there for? does the gimp need an equal number of points in each curve?

strange. i await the reply on the mailing list...

[edit]

it might just be formatting... i deleted all -1,x points and the file didn't load (no big surprise i guess), but when i changed them all to -1,0 there was no difference in the curve i loaded. i think you probably can ignore these points, but that still doesn't explain why they're there (perhaps when you remove a point while making the curve, it maintains it in the file, but just puts a -1 on it? but then the x coord is lost... very strange)

E-Male · 12th January 2005, 07:14

i wrote a little function that allows easy exporting of 4 frames as 1
might help tuning curves in gimp

Code:

function prev(clip clp, int a, int b, int c, int d)
{ aa=clp.trim(a,-1).subtitle(string(a))
  bb=clp.trim(b,-1).subtitle(string(b))
  cc=clp.trim(c,-1).subtitle(string(c))
  dd=clp.trim(d,-1).subtitle(string(d))
  ra=stackhorizontal(aa,bb)
  rb=stackhorizontal(cc,dd)
  res=stackvertical(ra,rb)
  return( res )  }

enter the 4 frames you want to export as parameters
example:
prev(10, 12, 14, 16)

9th January 2005, 15:33	#21 \| Link
scharfis_brain brainless Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 3,653	Very interesting! Do all of your mentioned Cams show this behaviour? May that be a decompression problem on your side? i can post frames if you like. I do. But some frames of untouched DV I would like even more. __________________ Don't forget the 'c'! Don't PM me for technical support, please.

10th January 2005, 15:21	#26 \| Link
E-Male mad computer-scientist Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,375	Gimp color curve file to AdustRGB parameters guide # GIMP Curves File 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 255 255 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 206 255 -1 255 -1 255 -1 255 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 255 183 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 57 255 -1 255 -1 255 -1 -1 -1 255 -1 -1 -1 255 -1 255 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 255 -1 255 -1 252 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 255 255 adjustrgb("spline(R,0,0,206,255,255,255 )", "spline(G,0,0,255,183 )", "spline(B,0,0,57,255,255,255 )") 2 numbers are always a pair just copy them to the parmaters and replace spaces by commas -1 means same as before, don't put that into AdustRGB (there seems to be no -1s at 255 for whatever reason) value and alpha (first and last line of numbers) aren't supported (yet) Last edited by E-Male; 10th January 2005 at 15:26.

11th January 2005, 16:01	#33 \| Link
Macanudo Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 59	If anyone is interested in testing E-Male's plugin you should check out this site FootageFirm.com. There is some freely downloadable uncompressed DV footage on the site. This way we can all use the same clips to do our testing. Last edited by Macanudo; 11th January 2005 at 16:21.

12th January 2005, 02:29	#35 \| Link
Mug Funky interlace this! Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: i'm in ur transfers, addin noise Posts: 4,555	it doesn't appear to be using the luma curve properly, but the colour curves seem to be working okay. (i do contrast adjustment on the luma curve, but colour balance on the r,g,and b curves). but i've got a gimp curve that looks pretty good so far. need to test it on more images though. __________________ sucking the life out of your videos since 2004

12th January 2005, 06:36	#37 \| Link
Macanudo Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 59	AdjustGimp Test I couldn't wait until I fixed my machine to test AdjustGimp, so I am on a friends rig. I think Mug Funky is right about the value curve not being applied correctly. I used the identical frame in each test. I took a screen shot plugged it into "The Gimp" and generated a color curve. I then took the curve and plugged it into AdjustGimp. Here are some screen shots of my results. I am using the boats clip for the source I posted in my above reply. Original Screen Shot (frame#360) Gimp Curve (frame#360) AdustGimp Curve (frame#360) Here is the curve file I used. # GIMP Curves File 0 0 -1 44 28 43 -1 65 67 96 -1 93 -1 65 -1 140 121 139 -1 -1 -1 204 -1 201 192 190 213 224 -1 221 -1 242 255 255 0 0 -1 56 -1 47 -1 34 61 35 -1 -1 -1 118 -1 110 128 99 -1 98 162 193 -1 213 189 241 -1 236 -1 226 -1 -1 255 255 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 49 63 45 -1 47 100 92 -1 149 121 149 151 191 -1 186 -1 192 196 233 -1 228 -1 -1 -1 -1 255 255 0 0 21 38 -1 35 -1 -1 63 53 -1 66 104 65 117 139 -1 138 148 201 -1 203 -1 203 -1 198 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 255 255 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 255 255 I notice alot of -1 values in several pairings. Could that be the source of the problem? If so would it be ok to manually change those -1 pairings to 0 or 1? Last edited by Macanudo; 12th January 2005 at 06:40.

9th January 2005, 21:37	#22 \| Link
CraigBjorn Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 61	Film look isn't just something you can do with a push of a few buttons... if you look at even the pictures on the review site they all have at least good composition and lighting. The things you can do to make it look more like film are those sharpening, denoising, and deinterlacing tecniques which are more than plentiful on these boards. However, I think a very crucucial part to film is the coloring. And anyone good with curves knows how useful they can be to making anwesome picture. The only downside to the current implimitations of curves is that we only have photoshops curves availible for import. If there were a way to import giimp curves I think that would be at least one step closer to a fully free alternative to things like magic bullet.

10th January 2005, 13:18	#24 \| Link
E-Male mad computer-scientist Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,375	i'm busy atm i'll see next week if i can add something here

10th January 2005, 19:16	#27 \| Link
E-Male mad computer-scientist Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,375	automation is done: http://e-rels.dyndns.org/downloads/gccp.exe example: gccp c:/gimp/testcurve.txt i wasn't able to put my file-reading code into the plug-in, yet (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88041)

10th January 2005, 22:52	#28 \| Link
CraigBjorn Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 61	Wow, that was amazingly quick, I'll have to test it as soon as I have time... the only reasons I had suggest Gimp over anything else was because it's open source, and the spline curve is easily readable, thanx.

10th January 2005, 23:13	#29 \| Link
E-Male mad computer-scientist Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,375	don't say thx to me before testing this is very likly to be wrong in some places for example one thing i'm not sure how to handle atm is this: sometimes only the 1st of the 2 values in a pair is -1 i can't use that pair, because spline in avisynth won't work with 2 equal x values but that means that i loose the second value besides those things i plan to optimize the plug-in as soon as i have file reading added gotta get rid of the envoke

11th January 2005, 08:27	#30 \| Link
Macanudo Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 59	Thank You E-Male! I am having difficulty with my Windows install at the moment, and it looks as if I am going to have to do a clean installation. I will have to wait until I have resolved the windows situation to do any testing. I think this has the potential to be a "very powerful" effects tool. Combined with the de-interlacing solution of your choice, Didee's Limited Sharpen, Gaussian Blur, and Overlay we now have a free alternative to the $1000 "magic bullet suite". As soon as I have addressed my Windows problem, I will test and post my results and the Gimp Curves I used. Again, Thank You Also, Thank you to Didee, MugFunky and others who contributed.

11th January 2005, 11:41	#31 \| Link
DSP8000 Doom9 Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 210	As I stated in my first post "AVIsynth Gurus" , amazing. Very helpfull people, I didn't test your stuff e-male but looks promising. Of course if we can get other people involved in the process the plugin could do unreal job. Tnx. for spending time for this. DSP8000

11th January 2005, 23:13	#34 \| Link
E-Male mad computer-scientist Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,375	http://e-rels.dyndns.org/downloads/adjustgimp.dll example: adjustgimp("c:/gimp/curve1.txt") the good things: -reads gimp color curve files directly -reads and uses all 5 lines the bad things: -untested!! (i hope you guys will do) -not sure at all if i interpret everything correct (waiting for tests) -still not sure what to do if only the x coordiante is "-1" (for now dropping the pair) -no handling of mistyped filenames! (be carefull and remember: "/" not "\") -still using envoke (gonna put in the spline code later)

12th January 2005, 03:02	#36 \| Link
E-Male mad computer-scientist Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,375	i use the first curve on R, G and B but i guess i need to be corrected on that

12th January 2005, 06:53	#38 \| Link
E-Male mad computer-scientist Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,375	if send a mail with questions to the gimp developer maling list i hope to get the needed info from there to fix that (-1,-1)-pairs are ignored, which should be correct what i'm not sure is what to do with (-1,x)-pairs [x>0] for now i just ignore them, too, which doesn't feel too right also i'm not sure how to use the value curve at all so my code for it might be just all wrong i'll update the dll as soon as i got new infomation to work with

12th January 2005, 07:13	#39 \| Link
Mug Funky interlace this! Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: i'm in ur transfers, addin noise Posts: 4,555	hmm... by playing with the curve file in textpad and loading it into the gimp, it seems pairs of the form -1,x are ignored, but pairs of the form x,-1 and x,-y are actually plotted with a negative value. also, pairs of the form -x,y are done this way (the curve goes off the screen in these cases it seems). in fact, there's a lot of points in a curve file that don't seem to be used. i wonder what they're there for? does the gimp need an equal number of points in each curve? strange. i await the reply on the mailing list... [edit] it might just be formatting... i deleted all -1,x points and the file didn't load (no big surprise i guess), but when i changed them all to -1,0 there was no difference in the curve i loaded. i think you probably can ignore these points, but that still doesn't explain why they're there (perhaps when you remove a point while making the curve, it maintains it in the file, but just puts a -1 on it? but then the x coord is lost... very strange) __________________ sucking the life out of your videos since 2004 Last edited by Mug Funky; 12th January 2005 at 07:18.