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Old 27th August 2002, 09:17   #141  |  Link
MfA
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Well it seems they are restoring most of the real history on the files so its moot.

With the latest MPEGLA licenses distributing binaries doesnt seem to be much of a problem anymore, although anyone wishing to distribute them will probably have to sign the MPEGLA patent license (or rather anyone wishing to distribute 50000 pieces of the binary, but since any legal entity can distribute 50K that just means you have to change the owner of the download page to someone with a new license of his own every so often :). After that it becomes impossible to claim no knowledge of the fact that the XviD code is patent encumbered though, and as such not distributable under the GPL (the only legal way of distributing XviD at all, source or binary, at the moment is to claim ignorance of the patents).

BTW Temporance, could you point out to me the clause in the GPL which allows me to distribute source code (which is copyrighted in and of itself, so I need a license to distribute) under the GPL if the code is patent encumbered? :)

Last edited by MfA; 27th August 2002 at 09:25.
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Old 27th August 2002, 09:24   #142  |  Link
Koepi
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Quote:
Originally posted by temporance
Put simply, Sigma (or any other company) cannot use code they have licensed under GPL (and they implicitly accepted the terms of the GPL when they first pressed Ctrl-V) in a product which will be subject to patent license (e.g. MPEG licensing). This is why xvid is not available as a binary at xvid.org - source code is generally considered to be a description of a patent invention, not an infringement.
You should emphase that xvid is perfectly legal as long as it is sourcecode, in every country.

Maybe the binaries aren't necessarily - that's why I state they still are only for educational purposes and for you having the possibility to help the development by finding some errors.

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Old 27th August 2002, 09:27   #143  |  Link
MfA
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Koepi, only patent wise. You have no formal license as far as copyrights are concerned to distribute XviD, either in source or binary form (unless you claim ignorance of MPEG-4 patents, in which case it doesnt matter if you distribute binaries or source). We all rely on tacit agreements, not the GPL, for that. Which works, but is rather silly.
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Old 27th August 2002, 11:18   #144  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by temporance

GPL and MPEG licensing are incompatible. GPL is conditional on the code and derivatives being free to all users while MPEGLA wants to charge royalties in some circumstances.
I understand. As far as Sigma is distributing their codec for free and for everybody, they could accomplish with GPL, at least in that way. But they will never fully accomplish with it since the product they are distributing is patented and these patents are not royalty free. Well the only way would be paying a license for universal MPEG free use, but this is fairly impossible

So even if they fix file headers removing copyrights and replacing original histories they will still be infringing GPL.

Then, is there any solution to this issue other that Sigma stopping the distribution of their codec?
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Old 27th August 2002, 11:31   #145  |  Link
MfA
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They would be breaking the GPL, but no moreso than Michael/Koepi/umaniac/etc themselves are doing (if Sigma restores all the original copyrights on all the files that is). So that is not really a problem, breaking the letter of the GPL never was the problem ... nearly noone uses it to the letter (XviD ignores what it actually says to the point of silliness though).

BTW A free license for the patent would not be enough to comply with the GPL, it has to be unrestricted too. The MPEGLA licenses only apply to use in compliant products, which even if the licenses were entirely royaltee free (or if the royaltees were payed by Sigma) would be incompatible with the GPL.
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Old 27th August 2002, 13:41   #146  |  Link
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Sigma avoids MPEGLA royalties by their EULA in their software. Its obvious they intend to do the same with Mpeg-4 via RealMagic, as soon as they solve these GPL annoyances.

However, this entire situation has been a significant road block for Sigma, and I would not be surprised if they rewrote the entire codec (or major portions) so that they could successfully un-GPL it.

Remember, it took the XviD team about a year to get rid of all the OpenDivX Licensed code. Sigma has paid programmers working 40 hours a week to do the same... How long will it take them?
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Old 27th August 2002, 13:58   #147  |  Link
MfA
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They should have just done it like the rest of the industry and built from momusys, there even is an official optimized version cut down to simple profile available nowadays. Unlike XviD they dont have to worry about GPL compatibility, so they can reuse it as is.
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Old 27th August 2002, 16:01   #148  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by MfA
BTW Temporance, could you point out to me the clause in the GPL which allows me to distribute source code (which is copyrighted in and of itself, so I need a license to distribute) under the GPL if the code is patent encumbered?
MfA,

GPL says, in general terms:
"you can use/distribute this code as much as you like subject to conditions x, y, z"
Non of x, y, z says you must respect patent law.

I doesn't say (or need to say):
"you can use/distribute this code as much as you like subject to conditions x, y, z, and I will indemnify you against any patent law suit that might arise from the use of this code"

Even "hello_world.c" might infringe patents. You can't expect its author to do a patent search before releasing under GPL.

GPL and patent laws are just two of many sets of rules that a person must obey in his daily life. GPL is of course optional - you agree to its terms when you use some code like xvid. If those two sets of rules are incompatible, you must choose to violate either one or both sets of rules, or agree not to use xvid under GPL.
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Old 27th August 2002, 18:31   #149  |  Link
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int 21h

Quote:
Remember, it took the XviD team about a year to get rid of all the OpenDivX Licensed code. Sigma has paid programmers working 40 hours a week to do the same... How long will it take them?
hmm obviously not that long but you have to know how smart these 40 coders are and if your looking into the history of the rm4 codec they are not that smart (skilled). Do you wan't to say they are more motivated because they get paid for doing it ? I don't think NNs attention was money as he did Nandub, what he did was the work of a beliver later from more belivers so you can't say only because they get paid they will get faster done with this task. And im sure you know that if someone realy belives in what he's doing he archives more as he only does it because of the money thats involved and also i think you are one of these who knows that for good
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Old 27th August 2002, 21:53   #150  |  Link
int 21h
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Quote:
Originally posted by CruNcher
int 21h
hmm obviously not that long but you have to know how smart these 40 coders are and if your looking into the history of the rm4 codec they are not that smart (skilled). Do you wan't to say they are more motivated because they get paid for doing it ? I don't think NNs attention was money as he did Nandub, what he did was the work of a beliver later from more belivers so you can't say only because they get paid they will get faster done with this task. And im sure you know that if someone realy belives in what he's doing he archives more as he only does it because of the money thats involved and also i think you are one of these who knows that for good
Yes, but the scale that nando worked on was much smaller, altering variables at runtime in an already completed codec is one thing. Constructing the codec is another

Besides, at the time, nando had no wife.. or significant life to speak of, both of which have changed now
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Old 28th August 2002, 02:02   #151  |  Link
MfA
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Quote:
Originally posted by temporance

MfA,

GPL says, in general terms:
"you can use/distribute this code as much as you like subject to conditions x, y, z"
Non of x, y, z says you must respect patent law.
[/i]
Quote:
For example, if a patent license would not permit royalty-free redistribution of the Program by all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through you, then the only way you could satisfy both it and this License would be to refrain entirely from distribution of the Program.
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Old 28th August 2002, 09:51   #152  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by MfA

For example, if a patent license would not permit royalty-free redistribution of the Program by all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through you, then the only way you could satisfy both it and this License would be to refrain entirely from distribution of the Program.
This does not say that I must respect the patent licensor. It is just pointing out to me that I have a choice:

1. don't use the code at all
2. violate GPL by buying a patent license for my product
3. violate the patent by releasing my product under GPL
4. do both 2 and 3

and that the only way to be completely legal is option 1.
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Old 28th August 2002, 13:21   #153  |  Link
kastro68
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Xvid Development stopped?

Is this true?

Darn, i didn't download the latest build


I have exams, and don'thave time to read all the posts, but Patents expire in 17 years don't they? Maybe this piece of info could be of help.


I enjoyed the ride while it lasted,

ja.
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Old 28th August 2002, 13:41   #154  |  Link
Nic
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What makes you think the ride has stopped? its just slowed to a standstill....all good rides keep you in suspense.
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Old 28th August 2002, 14:22   #155  |  Link
Nightweaver
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The XviD-land engineers discovered some bubblegum on the tracks and had to stop the ride temporarily to get rid of it ... or something.
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Old 29th August 2002, 11:04   #156  |  Link
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Sigma have change some info, with more.
http://www.sigmadesigns.com/products...ideo_codec.htm
and SIgma have done some change at the copyright.

plz check it out xvid team.




Last edited by GreatLord; 29th August 2002 at 11:08.
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Old 29th August 2002, 11:11   #157  |  Link
athos
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For example I find this in encoder.c:
Code:
/**************************************************************************
 *
 *	History:
 *  01.06.2002  Sigma Designs Inc.
 *
 *  imported from encoder.c from XVID MPEG-4 VIDEO CODEC
 *
 *************************************************************************/
and they stress that the GNU Public License should be included:
Quote:
You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License along with this program; if not, write to the Free Software Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place, Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307 USA
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