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Old 15th February 2019, 13:54   #54741  |  Link
Charky
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Originally Posted by madjock View Post
all the reviews you read say turn everything off, but don't touch this or that, and thats all you have left to try and get a good picture
Image processing on high-end TVs has become really good, so even that should be taken with a huge grain of salt as it's mostly a matter of personnal preference.

Best example is motion interpolation. Most self-proclaimed purists are very happy to watch 24p movies with judder because "hey, that's what a 24p movie is supposed to look like, it's part of movie language". Except the movie was primarily supposed to be watched in an actual movie theater where I've never seen any motion judder, probably because the projection tech is different. So, TV or projector, I always activate a tad of motion interpolation (3/10 de-judder on my LG, motionflow low on my Sony VP) to achieve what I consider to be "actual movie theater" look. I'm sure 90% of people here would consider this a blasphemy

Bottom line : random articles on the Internet saying you should turn this setting on or off on your TV or projector are not always right... Just give it a try and see 1) if you see a difference and 2) if you like it.

Last edited by Charky; 15th February 2019 at 13:58.
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Old 15th February 2019, 13:59   #54742  |  Link
huhn
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check up the term judder.

both TV and projector in cinemas are able to show the same type of motion judder free 24 hz.

the term judder comes from displaying 24 frames at 60 hz aka 3:2 judder(there are other types of judder too) which creates shaking movement and looks abyssal in camera pan shoots.
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Old 15th February 2019, 14:03   #54743  |  Link
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Watching 24p movies with judder is terrible and I don't think any video purists would suggest that. You do not need motion interpolation to avoid judder

I also tested all the processing options of my TV and turned them off because they damage the image, most obviously by converting to 4:2:2 to do the processing.

I agree that one should test themselves but the processing on many TVs does do a lot of damage to the output from madVR.
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Old 15th February 2019, 14:20   #54744  |  Link
tp4tissue
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
check up the term judder.

both TV and projector in cinemas are able to show the same type of motion judder free 24 hz.

the term judder comes from displaying 24 frames at 60 hz aka 3:2 judder(there are other types of judder too) which creates shaking movement and looks abyssal in camera pan shoots.

Yup. I used to be bothered by judder, Until I realized, Camera pan shots look crappy no matter what you do, because it's 24fps..

Where's that damn 48fps hobbit..

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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Watching 24p movies with judder is terrible and I don't think any video purists would suggest that. You do not need motion interpolation to avoid judder

I also tested all the processing options of my TV and turned them off because they damage the image, most obviously by converting to 4:2:2 to do the processing.

I agree that one should test themselves but the processing on many TVs does do a lot of damage to the output from madVR.
Let's not forget 24p in general is poop.. Save us James Cameron



Madvr is a brute force sort of processor. Bundled TV processors, well they have to make a buck.

If we add up cost, a Strictly Madvr build ~$200 GPU + $300 CPU + $150 Motherboard + $50 Cooler + $50 Powersupply + $150 Ram + $50 case, That's $950 already for the image processor.

The whole damn TV is ~$500-2000, how could they possibly match the ability of a $950 image processor, and Madshi's immense TALENT . ?
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Old 15th February 2019, 15:12   #54745  |  Link
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how could they possibly match the ability of a $950 image processor, and Madshi's immense TALENT . ?
I'll drink to that
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Old 15th February 2019, 15:19   #54746  |  Link
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Guys is print screen better than the MPCHC jpg screenshot for madvr ?
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Old 15th February 2019, 15:32   #54747  |  Link
huhn
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it'S not an generally an jpg so yes possible better.
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Old 15th February 2019, 16:29   #54748  |  Link
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
That is incorrect.
The resting vergence distance for the eye is ~1.5meter
The natural relaxed focal distance of the eye's lens is ~1.5meter
This is minimal distance something should be viewed when considering Viewing Comfort.
Ah, apologies, I assumed that by comfort you meant sensitivity to light intensity, flicker, or motion.
For my part I am able to read books or even work all day on a computer display from 75 cm very comfortably (as long as its backlight doesn't flicker).
Of course I don't do that with my TV because of living space considerations, but not because of eye comfort considerations.
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Old 15th February 2019, 17:57   #54749  |  Link
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If they'd just release those 10000 nit displays they're holding back from us we wouldn't need any of madvr's magical tone mapping! (Come on, that was hilarious! )
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Old 15th February 2019, 19:16   #54750  |  Link
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If they'd just release those 10000 nit displays they're holding back from us we wouldn't need any of madvr's magical tone mapping! (Come on, that was hilarious! )
It's only 10000 with single lcd layer

So... we'd need 20,000 with the panasonic light modulation layer + lcd layer

Then throw in blur reduction blinking, something like 30-40,000cd ?
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Old 15th February 2019, 19:47   #54751  |  Link
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
Guys is print screen better than the MPCHC jpg screenshot for madvr ?
MPC-HC can also make screenshots in PNG format.
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Old 15th February 2019, 20:01   #54752  |  Link
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
It's only 10000 with single lcd layer

So... we'd need 20,000 with the panasonic light modulation layer + lcd layer

Then throw in blur reduction blinking, something like 30-40,000cd ?
I take it back...we WILL need madvr tone mapping after all. Even at 1000-2000 nits some of these displays are blinding! My 700 or so nits with my OLED is fine but I've seen some of these crazy high nit LCD's and I would think some people would want to tone map down so as not to need sunglasses!
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Old 15th February 2019, 23:37   #54753  |  Link
Alexkral
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The thing I don't understand all viewing distances aside, is that people say you need to spend X on a really good OLED TV with HDR and High Nits, yet everyone says the most common TVs still do not have a high enough brightness for HDR.

You see comments on TV threads saying well your TV is only 350 NITS, so you do not have proper HDR etc etc.

But yet you have madshi and others tweaking the heck out of HDR-SDR on projectors with even lower NITS and they are saying that they don't want to use HDR passthrough as it looks so much better.

So if HDR relies on brightness, how can you make SDR look better ?
That's because of the way HDR relies on brightness. HDR is supossed to be seen exactly the same in the range 0-100 as SDR in a 100 peak nits display, but with the added highlights above that up to the display limit (say 350 nits). But this same 0-100 range in SDR at full brightness becomes 0-350 in this example.

So the reasoning to determine whether or not a display has a proper HDR is based on the range it has to fit the highlights, which for HDR10 are in the range 100-1000 and for Dolby 100-4000, and that's very subjetive. I've seen comments like those you say but also reviews in Rtings giving an 8 score in HDR to displays with only 450 peak nits. The only serious paper I've seen is one from EBU about requirements for video monitors in TV production, which sets the lower limit to 600 nits.

And the problem to have a simple calibration setup is that not all the content is graded the same way. That's why they're using madVR measurements of different averages to set dynamically the most adequate exposure.
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Old 15th February 2019, 23:46   #54754  |  Link
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Originally Posted by LigH View Post
If it is telecined (Film => NTSC), use Inverse Telecine (IVTC); else - if it is interlaced, use a deinterlacer (preferably with bobber to double the frame rate).
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PsF pal is technically telecine too and using ivtc instead of deinterlancing is usually better to or deactivating deinterlancing.

the "best" deinterlancer we currently have in madVR is video deinterlancing which is frame adaptive on all GPUs
Did I understand correctly that LAV Deinterlacing Algorithm need to set to "No software deinterlacing" for all cases basically?
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Old 15th February 2019, 23:57   #54755  |  Link
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if you want madVR IVTC or hardware deinterlancing yes.
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Old 16th February 2019, 00:28   #54756  |  Link
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And the problem to have a simple calibration setup is that not all the content is graded the same way. That's why they're using madVR measurements of different averages to set dynamically the most adequate exposure.
I agree with all that you say, but the part I do not understand, is if this is the case, there are multiple people comparing the same scenes but they will all have different settings to start off with.

I understand all HDR movies are not the same, but unless you start off with a base setting, I don't understand how you can setup madVR ?

The principal with SDR is set whites and blacks, but with HDR its not really talked about, so when we say about tone mapping of TVs, where is the starting point ? As surely we need one ?

Maybe I am missing something here as 99% of people will not be using madVR, so how do the rest of the users set up an HDR TV.
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Old 16th February 2019, 01:36   #54757  |  Link
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I agree with all that you say, but the part I do not understand, is if this is the case, there are multiple people comparing the same scenes but they will all have different settings to start off with.

I understand all HDR movies are not the same, but unless you start off with a base setting, I don't understand how you can setup madVR ?

The principal with SDR is set whites and blacks, but with HDR its not really talked about, so when we say about tone mapping of TVs, where is the starting point ? As surely we need one ?

Maybe I am missing something here as 99% of people will not be using madVR, so how do the rest of the users set up an HDR TV.

The non-madvr plebs just use passthrough or equivalent, letting the TV do the tonemapping.

The TV uses the same style of tonemapping as madvr's tone mapping to get the hdr bluray content to FIT in the range of the tv set.

Madvr is just more pliable and NGU (holy aura, angel sings).
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Old 16th February 2019, 01:44   #54758  |  Link
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Sorry, I misread your post, I though you was refering to a setup for HDR -> SDR. HDR is an absolute format, so you don't have to do anything, the HDR mode of your display takes care of doing everything and it should look the same as in any other HDR display up to the peak limit. You only have to make sure to choose the normal HDR mode and maybe check that contrast and backlight are at 100% and dynamic contrast is disabled.

Anyway I don't use HDR passthrough and my HDR TV is from 2016 so I'm not the best to explain this.
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Old 16th February 2019, 01:59   #54759  |  Link
huhn
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no this is not even close to reality.

HDR display do what ever they what and there is no clear spec on how to put the higher range image into the lower range of the TV.

just clipping is not an option. clipping 4000 nits to 600 will not result in anything useful. heck what about sub 100 nit projector just clip at 100 nits?
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Old 16th February 2019, 03:14   #54760  |  Link
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They don't do whatever they want, they all have to decode the content with the same PQ EOTF up to some point, so the image up to this point is exactly the same in terms of luminance, with the only difference of the limitations of each display regarding black point. Above that point each display has his own tonemapping, but this doesn't affect very much the overall luminance.

HDR for 100 nits projectors? They can sell it but it's just a contradiction. So yes, clipping at 100 nits shoud be the only reasonable option.
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