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Old 2nd July 2019, 20:04   #56741  |  Link
tp4tissue
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On the latest build, 1060 is the minimum for HDR->SDR Tonemapping. You can use 3DLUT, you can't use NGU.

Some users on here consider (no NGU chroma) -A Compromise-, As an enthusiast that is their right.

But 100% of the time actually WATCHING A MOVIE, you can not tell the difference between lanczos chroma and Ngu Chroma.

At more than 2 feet away, on a 50 inch screen, I can't even tell the difference between Nearest neighbor chroma and NGU VeryHigh.


For 1080p SDR movies, and 2160p HDR, 1060gtx is more than enough.

Enthusiasts like to pump the chroma setting because it makes them feel special. In reality it's a waste of electricity. This has been discussed to death since the NNEDI craze.


The only thing about 1060 anyone needs to watch out for is mining cards with low VRM count, these cards wear out and blow up.

It is recommended to get 1070, because who knows what madshi might cook up in the future.. But the politics is of course, now that Madshi is switching to Envy, will Madvr-Fans receive the same updates as before.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 20:32   #56742  |  Link
xabregas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
did i miss something?
I want to upscale only. i have 4k HDR TV. So no need for tonemapping.

And im on a tight budget. So i can go 1650, rx 570 or 580. 1660 makes me go from 16GB to 8GB, M2 nvme to ssd and a worst case.

I think i can live without NGU performance or VP) hardware decoding. Given my cpu can software decoding a 4k vp9 youtube video at 4k resolution im fine. Ryzen 5 can do that i guess...

Now RX 570 4/8GB or 580 4GB?
And 1650 is that bad??
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Old 2nd July 2019, 20:45   #56743  |  Link
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a 580 should destroy a 1650 if NGU isn't used. it's a really bad card for the price the 1660 is massively faster.
used 580 and 1060 should be relative cheap. madVR is fine with 4Gb "everything" else not so much.
software decoder for VP9 are very good but i never tested VP9 10 bit decoding.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 21:47   #56744  |  Link
xabregas
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
a 580 should destroy a 1650 if NGU isn't used. it's a really bad card for the price the 1660 is massively faster.
used 580 and 1060 should be relative cheap. madVR is fine with 4Gb "everything" else not so much.
software decoder for VP9 are very good but i never tested VP9 10 bit decoding.
ok so rx 580 here i go. And VP9 10 bit 4k decoding even by software with youtube low video bitrates shouldnt be an issue for an hexa core with 12 threads and idk how many cache but almost 20'mb. i guess 20% of cpu??

Last edited by xabregas; 2nd July 2019 at 21:56.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 22:48   #56745  |  Link
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
BTW. tone mapping with TVs is sadly not that great people are usually not eager to have an 500+ nits SDR image or change the TV settings all the time...
I think we've talked about this before, the main reason is to raise the diffuse white level. This is useful even for 500+ nits TVs, though in this case it's much more justified to follow the PQ to get the HDR as it was conceived. But below that the conversion to SDR works very well, and could work better in my opinion for 250+ nits with some settings that ATM madVR does not provide.

Look at this, unfortunately the video has been deleted:

https://www.liftgammagain.com/forum/...-in-hdr.10305/
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Old 3rd July 2019, 01:39   #56746  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
a 580 should destroy a 1650 if NGU isn't used. it's a really bad card for the price the 1660 is massively faster.
used 580 and 1060 should be relative cheap. madVR is fine with 4Gb "everything" else not so much.
software decoder for VP9 are very good but i never tested VP9 10 bit decoding.
I've had banding issues with the 580, and the HDR passthrough sometimes doesn't trigger properly.. Madshi may fix everything in the future, but it doesn't make any sense to buy a 580 today, when we know a 1060 WORKS for all the important features.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 08:23   #56747  |  Link
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Originally Posted by xabregas View Post
I want to upscale only. i have 4k HDR TV. So no need for tonemapping.

And im on a tight budget. So i can go 1650, rx 570 or 580. 1660 makes me go from 16GB to 8GB, M2 nvme to ssd and a worst case.

I think i can live without NGU performance or VP) hardware decoding. Given my cpu can software decoding a 4k vp9 youtube video at 4k resolution im fine. Ryzen 5 can do that i guess...

Now RX 570 4/8GB or 580 4GB?
And 1650 is that bad??
you know, the other compromise is much better.
2x8GB ➔ 1x8GB would still allow you to add one more stick later on, plus 8GB ram doesn't really affect video quality and your PC would still run just fine.
NVMe ➔ SATA SSD would still allow you to add an NVMe later on, on this note a SATA SSD is just as capable, in practice it would only be a tiny bit slower for non-SSD-to-SSD-filetransfer use.
heck if push comes to shove you could even temporarily go without an SSD if this PC is purely for playing videos, its not like waiting a few more seconds is worse than your eyes rotting right?
as for the case, well thats one thing i wouldn't compromise on.

where as buying a 1650, 570 or 580... you could only sell them at a loss to upgrade later on, worse yet if you can't even sell them off.
so you should ask yourself about your own priorities, is it to save money at the expense of barely scrapping the minimum, or buying less compromising parts at the expense of putting hold on buying other less relevant parts.

Last edited by kitame; 3rd July 2019 at 08:57.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 09:40   #56748  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xabregas View Post
I want to upscale only. i have 4k HDR TV. So no need for tonemapping.
And im on a tight budget. So i can go 1650, rx 570 or 580.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
it doesn't make any sense to buy a 580 today, when we know a 1060 WORKS for all the important features.
Agreed, just buy a used (!) 1060 6GB (MSI Gaming series are really low noise/silent as well).
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Old 3rd July 2019, 10:33   #56749  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni View Post
Here D3D11 copyback is at least 15-20% slower than D3D11 native. It's even more obvious when measuring files with MadMeasureHDR. It takes 10-15mn in D3D11 native with my 1080ti, at least 20-25mn in copyback, and more than 30mn with my iGPU on the MBP 13" 2018.
...
Good for you. It's not meaningless here. That's why I suggest you test a 1080ti with my OS and then report back, instead of claiming that there is no difference.
I already told them the very same here and here, asked them for similar graphs, never got a reply

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni View Post
the question is what exactly do you want to do with madVR
Almost, but the full (?) question is: what "environment" do you have, at least:
- projector, 720p/1080p TV, 4k HDR TV
-- is it capable of chroma 4:4:4 and will you use it (it can have drawbacks)
- screen size
- sitting distance
- resolution of content and the avg framerate of it

E.g. "only" a 65" 4k HDR TV from ~3 meters has completely different requirements than a 140" 4k PJ SDR screen from 2 meters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni View Post
A lot of people brag about their lower GPU, but they either don't use all the features or they compromise on quality. Or they don't notice frame drops.
...
Clearly a lot of people are happy with a 1060, and I'm very happy they are. But if someone buys a 1060 today, I'd rather be sure that they realise that they are limiting the number of features and the PQ they can get. That's all.
We agree with with "limiting the number of features" but not the "compromise on PQ" part.
Limitation of features (that is not required) is not a problem (e.g. with the B8 I don't need the tonemapping of madvr, I use HDR passthrough, and the result looks waaay better than the other at e.g. 140 nits)

The PQ debate is a different thing: this is what a 1060 6GB can do on a 4k HDR TV with different contents.

Now, if you take a look at the 2160p25 and 1080p25 profiles, we can see that the settings are pretty high (not maxed out, of course).
Other refresh rates and/or resolutions (e.g. 720p30) obviously have worse settings, but the question is: do we really care about those?

(Note, that I even modded those settings a bit but I haven't updated that post (yet)? due to lack of interest. )

Quote:
Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
It is recommended to get 1070, because who knows what madshi might cook up in the future.. But the politics is of course, now that Madshi is switching to Envy, will Madvr-Fans receive the same updates as before.
I only don't agree with this part: there's no such thing as future proofing in the world of PC, never was I just buy what (I think) I need at the moment.
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Last edited by chros; 3rd July 2019 at 10:51.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 11:18   #56750  |  Link
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Sometimes only by seeing what you miss out on do you realize it's worth upgrading.
Anyway, this got out of hand quickly, just throw a model out there don't overthink it, nobody is going to sue you for recommending a 1060 when they eventually decide they need a 1080+.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotripper View Post
But yes you'll need a Fosmon DP to HDMI cable. I did the former as 9 bucks was better than hundreds on a new receiver.
Yeah, I said screw it and bought an adapter from work, it's up and running now, cheers, getting DTS instead of HD MA was kinda annoying and obviously much lower quality.
I found a nice amp online I could've bought but it would've meant spending a ~$800 so this'll do for a while.

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Old 3rd July 2019, 15:28   #56751  |  Link
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Originally Posted by chros View Post

Now, if you take a look at the 2160p25 and 1080p25 profiles, we can see that the settings are pretty high (not maxed out, of course).
Other refresh rates and/or resolutions (e.g. 720p30) obviously have worse settings, but the question is: do we really care about those?
Here's what an Enthusiast should say:::

If anyone is watching anything other than 1080p remux and 2160p remux, that itself is the problem, there should never be any need to upscale 720p, because anything that's still in 720p isn't worth watching or upscaling. <turns 30 degrees, fold arms, /combative smirk>
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Old 3rd July 2019, 15:33   #56752  |  Link
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Originally Posted by chros View Post
Agreed, just buy a used (!) 1060 6GB (MSI Gaming series are really low noise/silent as well).
The heatsink looks adequate, how many vrm does this version have.

Basically there are 3+1, 4+1 and 6+1 version cards. Because most ebay cards are miners, the Safest cards are the 6+1.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 15:50   #56753  |  Link
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
Here's what an Enthusiast should say:::
I'm a 'content enthusiast' in addition to being a video quality enthusiast, and I have content that's simply not available in HD.
(I also have DVDs I could just buy again on Blu-ray but I'd rather invest my money in hardware or new content than do that).
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Old 3rd July 2019, 16:13   #56754  |  Link
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Vrams are not created equally.

Quote:
I already told them the very same here and here, asked them for similar graphs, never got a reply
you want some here as brutal as possible thanks to mpcVR native d3d11 render path.

https://abload.de/img/d3d9copybackrnjtc.png
https://abload.de/img/d3d11nativev8j3g.png

as additional informations:
i use the slowerest available hevc ready GPU i have here to show the biggest deltas, pretty much everything should be done using d3d11 video processing which uses very little GPU resources no interop as far as i know the only difference how the data get's to the renderer.
is so little work it not even starting to boost properly this is far less then it looks like. still excellent showing from d3d11 native.

so here starts the real issue why are user using a much much faster 1080ti loosing 10-15 % with madVR?
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Old 3rd July 2019, 17:22   #56755  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
Here's what an Enthusiast should say:::

If anyone is watching anything other than 1080p remux and 2160p remux, that itself is the problem, there should never be any need to upscale 720p, because anything that's still in 720p isn't worth watching or upscaling. <turns 30 degrees, fold arms, /combative smirk>
You Sir, earn a beer for that one!

In a perfect world, would one need Madvr I guess is the point, and yet, here we all are
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Old 3rd July 2019, 17:55   #56756  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
The heatsink looks adequate, how many vrm does this version have.

Basically there are 3+1, 4+1 and 6+1 version cards. Because most ebay cards are miners, the Safest cards are the 6+1.
Good question, I'm not an expert of this, but this page says 5+1.
Note that MSI gaming (X) series is one of the most expensive cards on the market (in a given line-up).

Quote:
Originally Posted by el Filou View Post
I'm a 'content enthusiast' in addition to being a video quality enthusiast, and I have content that's simply not available in HD.
(I also have DVDs I could just buy again on Blu-ray but I'd rather invest my money in hardware or new content than do that).
Yes, that's a good point and there can be still 720p broadcasts as well.
But that's what I meant about asking these details as well, because it can be unimportant to somebody else.

@huhn, thanks, I'll take a look at it later (I don't have access to certain sites here).
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Old 3rd July 2019, 17:57   #56757  |  Link
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Yeah, I said screw it and bought an adapter from work...
Yeah I am there with you though, I would like to get a new receiver as well, it woulkd be nice to use only one cable, and not have to switch inputs all the time but I have better things to spend my money on right now, in time I will switch.

Can I recommend a nice little utility called Audio Switcher it is nice, it lets you assign an icon for audio devices, click to switch, rename, and hotkeys, etc. To be honest the best feature is having the icon show so you know which audio out is selected at any given time.
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Old 4th July 2019, 10:26   #56758  |  Link
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
you want some here as brutal as possible thanks to mpcVR native d3d11 render path.
I'm not sure that that's the best example, it's not even madVR, not to mention not NGU, but I see the same thing on the screenshot I reported here: GPU usage 8% vs 3% -> ~5% difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
so here starts the real issue why are user using a much much faster 1080ti loosing 10-15 % with madVR?
Not to mention that you used an SD file for the comparison (according to the screenshot), and not a ~60GB 4K remux.

Do I miss something or misinterpreted something?
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Old 4th July 2019, 11:21   #56759  |  Link
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Originally Posted by chros View Post
I only don't agree with this part: there's no such thing as future proofing in the world of PC, never was I just buy what (I think) I need at the moment.
To prove your point : the immediate future is mostly HDMI 2.1 (and 4k 60 Hz RGB full chroma) and no current GPU supports it.
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Old 4th July 2019, 12:09   #56760  |  Link
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I'm not sure that that's the best example, it's not even madVR, not to mention not NGU, but I see the same thing on the screenshot I reported here: GPU usage 8% vs 3% -> ~5% difference.
this is an 960 in idle playing an UHD file... not a 1060 not a 1080 ti they are supposed to be faster you don't pay more for less performance.
it's 5 % at 1 ghz on an 960.
you want to know the difference between 2 decoding option why would you care about NGU? you want to know the processing difference between ways to get the data to the renderer nothing else.
the GPU has 0.1 watt difference in power consumption between d3d9 copyback and d3d11 native.

and now the most important thing if mpcVR can do it this fast there is no reason madVR can do it this fast or even is this fast it's just far harder to test without code debugging.
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