madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[Nevilne]

Originally Posted by XMonarchY

I tested FineSharp on several sources and each time I could see obvious ringing using FineSharp in image enhancements and upscaling refinement. LumaSharpen does not SEEM to do that at default settings, so it is beyond me how people find FineSharp superior to LumaSharpen...

I agree. IMO some sources need an artifacting sharpener such as warpsharp instead of ringing/aliasing sharpeners currently in madvr.

I think its a good idea to update the OP with new screenshots of how madVR improves image quality vs. other renderers. Something with NNEDI3 + SuperRes + whatever else would be good. madVR 0.5 is very VERY old and its gotten 100x better since then!

[rack04]

Not sure if it's a bug or my system not keeping up but I get dropped frames at scene transitions with the trade quality for performance setting "don't render frames when fade in/out is detected" unchecked.

[luk008]

Thanks for the new release, madshi. I'm using super-xbr 125 for chroma upscale and image doubling and it seems good for me.

Originally Posted by XMonarchY

I tested FineSharp on several sources and each time I could see obvious ringing using FineSharp in image enhancements and upscaling refinement. LumaSharpen does not SEEM to do that at default settings, so it is beyond me how people find FineSharp superior to LumaSharpen...

Same opinion here.

[Eyldebrandt]

Originally Posted by XMonarchY

I tested FineSharp on several sources and each time I could see obvious ringing using FineSharp in image enhancements and upscaling refinement. LumaSharpen does not SEEM to do that at default settings, so it is beyond me how people find FineSharp superior to LumaSharpen...

Finesharp and Luma Sharpen don't do the same things.
Luma Sharpen is a pop eye-candy sharpen who has effect on brights pixels. Basically, he gives relief on some details only in a frame.

But i agree, with really moderates settings in refinement (defaults values are too high for me), he brings "something" with no counterparty.

Finesharp is just about destruction imo.

[Dogway]

I understand that the ideal situation (for dithering, etc) should be to set up Nvidia settings as "Full RGB" (do nothing), and then madVR to "TV Levels" for the TV display, the problem is that with "Full RGB" my desktop looks wrong (clipped).

I tried to set the nvidia video configuration settings (the old setting) to Full, while keeping Desktop to limited (so my desktop looks fine) but the latter seems to override the former because I don't see any change on my videos, or maybe madVR overrides this setting. So my question is, can't madVR override the Desktop color configuration to always use Full on the video driver?

[James Freeman]

After some reading, can I say that overlay mode solves all the issues with windows DWM because it is completely bypassed?

What about DX11 10bit overlay then? Is it possible?

[iSunrise]

Originally Posted by XMonarchY

I tested FineSharp on several sources and each time I could see obvious ringing using FineSharp in image enhancements and upscaling refinement. LumaSharpen does not SEEM to do that at default settings, so it is beyond me how people find FineSharp superior to LumaSharpen...

Since you neither share your settings (Finesharp) vs. LumaSharpen defaults nor do you provide screenshots to compare, it's a bit complicated to make meaningful conclusions without some hard facts.

There are way too many soft facts in this thread, which will ultimately lead to a product that could be better, but isn't, because people don't provide screenshots which show "what they see".

madshi can only make "good choices" with good quality feedback from this thread.

You just have to press "print screen" on your keyboard when not in fullscreen exclusive (windowed mode) at the same frame with the madVR settings you can change and will show up in realtime in your mediaplayer, upload it to some imagehost and post them here together with a short explanation "what you see". Takes less than 10 minutes to do and helps madshi as well as everyone else that uses madVR.

[James Freeman]

Originally Posted by Dogway

I understand that the ideal situation (for dithering, etc) should be to set up Nvidia settings as "Full RGB" (do nothing), and then madVR to "TV Levels" for the TV display, the problem is that with "Full RGB" my desktop looks wrong (clipped).

Indeed,
Full range from GPU, Limited in madVR, Limited in TV, will give you the best this setup can offer.
It will retain BTB, WTW, will not dither Luma, Just like a very high quality Blu-Ray player.
But at the expense of clipping PC desktop.

The next best thing is: Full GPU, Full madVR, Full TV (if supported and without apparent artifacts).
One conversion stage in madVR, top notch quality, nothing to worry about.
Most common with PC Monitors.

The next next best thing is: Limited GPU, Full MadVR, Limited TV.
You get two range conversions thus two dithering stages, The desktop from Full to Limited by the GPU, and Limited to Full by madVR.
Personally I don't see the dithering pattern so I see no problem with this option too.

Originally Posted by Dogway

I tried to set the nvidia video configuration settings (the old setting) to Full, while keeping Desktop to limited (so my desktop looks fine) but the latter seems to override the former because I don't see any change on my videos, or maybe madVR overrides this setting. So my question is, can't madVR override the Desktop color configuration to always use Full on the video driver?

If I'm not mistaken, madVR as nothing to do with the Video range settings in nvidia Control Panel.

[ryrynz]

Originally Posted by James Freeman

The next next best thing is: Limited GPU, Full MadVR, Limited TV.
You get two range conversions thus two dithering stages, The desktop from Full to Limited by the GPU, and Limited to Full by madVR.
Personally I don't see the dithering pattern so I see no problem with this option too.

Could madVR potentially skip this dithering stage (with no drawbacks) in this particular scenario?

[huhn]

Originally Posted by ryrynz

Could madVR potentially skip this dithering stage (with no drawbacks) in this particular scenario?

you can't get full range RGB from YCbCr without dithering/rounding so no.

[Dogway]

I wasn't expecting an explanation of something I already know, it was a question towards madshi mostly. Anyway you got it off a bit, so let me correct it, this is from best to worse:

(MADVR, NVIDIA CP, DISPLAY)

-Best situation is PC monitor; FULL, FULL, FULL (no range expansion)
-Then on TV display (is there such a full range TV exist?*); FULL, LIMITED, LIMITED (only range expansion once on madvr but wrong Desktop colors)
-Then the current situation/setup; LIMITED, FULL, LIMITED (nice colors all around but two quantization steps first on video driver -range conversion-, then in madvr)

To overcome this situation madshi should have access to the global/desktop video mode, so we can have Limited range overall, but when switching to FSE madvr can change it to Full in video driver, favoring the next setup (just like the second example above):
-Setup for TV; FULL (when FSE), LIMITED, LIMITED (no range expansion)

He asked for API access 3 years before.

* edit: yeah, found it, in Samsung TV it's called HDMI black level, "low" for limited "normal" for full. BTW because of this the whole post logic is a bit off, also I got the thing a bit off, first comes madVR, then the video driver takes the output of madVR (RGB) and send it through HDMI to the display.

[James Freeman]

Originally Posted by Dogway

I wasn't expecting an explanation of something I already know, it was a question towards madshi mostly. Anyway you got it off a bit, so let me correct it, this is from best to worse:

1. If you are referring to madshi only please type: @madshi.

2. My post does not need correction, for the simple reason that all videos are encoded in limited range, NOT Full.

[huhn]

nearly all TVs can do full range RGB. they usually have on option for this sometimes named black level something named PC/TV level and a lot more names.

[vivan]

Originally Posted by James Freeman

2. My post does not need correction, for the simple reason that all videos are encoded in limited range, NOT Full.

And so what?
Even when there's no processing, even when there's no scaling - there's still chroma that needs to be scaled and color conversion to be performed.

[ryrynz]

Originally Posted by huhn

nearly all TVs can do full range RGB. they usually have on option for this sometimes named black level something named PC/TV level and a lot more names.

My VT 50 only can switch modes when connected via DVI, since I bitstream this wasn't an option, but now that LAV does DTS decoding I could potentially go full all the way.

[James Freeman]

Originally Posted by vivan

And so what?
Even when there's no processing, even when there's no scaling - there's still chroma that needs to be scaled and color conversion to be performed.

Yes, Chroma range and color conversion from YCbCr to RGB still needs dithering to be accurate on an 8bit RGB display.
The point is to make less steps of it and refrain from "unnecessary" additional stages.
Nothing has less conversion stages than the option I have posted, (GPU Full, madVR Limited, TV Limited).

[huhn]

Originally Posted by James Freeman

Yes, Chroma range and color conversion from YCbCr to RGB still needs dithering to be accurate on an 8bit RGB display.
The point is to make less steps of it and refrain from "unnecessary" additional stages.
Nothing has less conversion stages than the option I have posted, (GPU Full, madVR Limited, TV Limited).

full range madVR, full range GPU, full range TV has the same number and is a clear winner and the TV at least technically doesn't have to do a limited to full range conversation.

[James Freeman]

Originally Posted by huhn

full range madVR, full range GPU, full range TV has the same number and is a clear winner and the TV at least technically doesn't have to do a limited to full range conversation.

WRONG, for the last time.

A typical video (mkv, Blu ray, DVD, you name it) is stored in limited range 16-235.
Selecting Full range in madVR WILL stretch it to 0-255 and will require dithering to prevent banding.

You can download the AVS709HD calibration patterns (all in video 16-236 range) and play the Grey Ramp video test pattern.
Now Disable dithering to see banding if madVR is set to Full range.
BUT, when you select Limited range in madVR and Disable dithering you will not see any difference at all with this pattern because madVR is not stretching the original range.

And just to clarify, the native (Standard) range of any TV is Limited.
Your TV box is outputting Limited range.
Nvidia through HDMI was Limited till the last driver.
Your typical Android box will send Limited through HDMI.

[RyuzakiL]

Originally Posted by James Freeman

WRONG, for the last time.

A typical video (mkv, Blu ray, DVD, you name it) is stored in limited range 16-235.
Selecting Full range in madVR WILL stretch it to 0-255 and will require dithering to prevent banding.

You can download the AVS709HD calibration patterns (all in video 16-236 range) and play the Grey Ramp video test pattern.
Now Disable dithering to see banding if madVR is set to Full range.
BUT, when you select Limited range in madVR and Disable dithering you will not see any difference at all with this pattern because madVR is not stretching the original range.

And just to clarify, the native (Standard) range of any TV is Limited.
Your TV box is outputting Limited range.
Nvidia through HDMI was Limited till the last driver.
Your typical Android box will send Limited through HDMI.

So I'm using a Samsung 40inch LedTV but i cannot set my TV to limited range since as you said the best setup is to prevent any redundant conversions between MadVR, GPU and TV.

as of now the only settings i can change into limited range were Madvr and GPU (HD7850) though i had a hunch that my TV can do FULL and LIMITED, but the catch is there's no setting where i can change my TV into limited.

But the thing is when MadVR change display modes my TV goes into TV mode and there i can change settings like "black tone", "dynamic contrast" and "HDMI Black level - LOW". but when it goes back to PC mode the settings were unavailable except for "HDMI black level - NORMAL".

so the question is can i still follow that recommended setup or should i settle for FULL,FULL,FULL config?

and there's also LavVideo who also can handle RGB Output levels and deinterlacing. should i disable these in LavVideo and let Madvr handle these?