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Old 21st September 2015, 13:30   #1  |  Link
kolak
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25p to 60i (using pulldown technique)

I've been told that there is a pro solution which does 25p to 60i conversion over 13 steps cadence.
I assume this is can be done with avisynth as swell?

Last edited by kolak; 22nd September 2015 at 21:05.
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Old 21st September 2015, 14:01   #2  |  Link
colours
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Anything involving interlacing is evil and you should not use interlacing ever. That said:

Code:
source
ChangeFPS(60) # or ChangeFPS(60000, 1001) depending on what you need
AssumeTFF() # or AssumeBFF
SeparateFields()
SelectEvery(4, 0, 3)
Weave()
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Old 21st September 2015, 14:38   #3  |  Link
feisty2
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Irregular pull down
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Old 21st September 2015, 16:31   #4  |  Link
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There is absolutely nothing evil or wrong about interlacing. It works great, and has been in use for longer than most people on this planet have been alive. It is still used today, and you watch interlaced TV all the time, and it looks wonderful.

That said, it does require more skill and knowledge to work with in the digital realm. In particular, any resizing or change in cadence does require deinterlacing, a step that always degrades the video. But, since re-sizing and frame rate changes ALSO degrade the video, deinterlacing, when used for those operations, isn't necessarily an "evil" thing. (I would advise never to deinterlace for any other reason.)

However, I will agree that interlacing appears to be a bad thing since so many people screw up their video because they don't understand how to handle it properly. This forum is filled with hundreds of posts that perfectly illustrate this point.

As for your request, the answer will depend on what you are trying to do. If you are trying to put it on a DVD, there are some pretty nifty solutions that have been posted in this forum which involve creating some unique pulldown flags. I didn't even know such a thing existed until I "went to school" in this long thread:

How to de-interlace 25i coming from 8 mm film transfer

Despite the heading, this person wanted to do something very similar to what you are doing. I linked to the post in that thread where I learned something I didn't know, namely that you can use something called DGPulldown to accomplish this feat, without any re-encoding. The result will play on an NTSC DVD player. Some people don't like the solution because it is interlaced (see my comments above) and also because they don't like the effect of pulldown (repeated fields). However, having tried all the other alternatives to pulldown, and since I deal with film transfers every day of my life, it is my opinion that this gives you the best-looking, sharpest results, and without any problems that you get doing speed changes or de-interlacing using motion estimation, bobbing, etc.
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Old 21st September 2015, 17:28   #5  |  Link
davidhorman
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It works great, and has been in use for longer than most people on this planet have been alive. It is still used today
You could say the same about fossil fuels and snail mail

Interlacing only "works great" because everyone was forced to come up with ways to handle it when we started to move away from CRTs.

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you watch interlaced TV all the time, and it looks wonderful.
You watch a progressive reconstruction from an interlaced source, and it can look terrible if it isn't done right - and doing it right costs, computationally.
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Old 21st September 2015, 22:19   #6  |  Link
johnmeyer
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I am certainly not going to get into a discussion about whether I'd rather have 60p as a standard rather than 60i. We are not supposed to talk about "better" in this forum, but I think I'm on safe ground saying that we'd all prefer 60p to 60i. However, as an engineer, I understand the fact that broadcast bandwidth, computing horsepower, computer memory, and many other constraints make interlaced video the best way to get a better picture than would otherwise be available to the customer, given these constraints.

It is true that most (but not all) viewing devices do create a "progressive reconstruction" (I like that term) for displaying the result, but I think most of the ones I've seen actually do a remarkably good job compared to 90% (or perhaps 99%) of the attempts to "do it yourself." There are clearly a few people in this forum who know how to do it right, but based on the video people send to me for restoration, I'd say that is the exception, and not the rule.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 05:23   #7  |  Link
feisty2
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Interlacing chroma subsampling color space other than CIE precision less than float
Should all go fuck themselves and be dead immediately
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Old 22nd September 2015, 05:44   #8  |  Link
colours
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Originally Posted by johnmeyer View Post
There is absolutely nothing evil or wrong about interlacing. It works great, and has been in use for longer than most people on this planet have been alive. It is still used today, and you watch interlaced TV all the time, and it looks wonderful.
If it works great for you, cool. I hardly even watch TV, much less interlaced TV, but on the rare occasion I do switch on my television set, I'm greeted with Moiré and shimmer, thanks to interlacing.

My objection isn't so much to deinterlacing (which is a restorative step) as it is to interlacing (which is a destructive step). Without interlacing, deinterlacing wouldn't be necessary. I think I've read papers showing that interlacing doesn't actually save bandwidth when lossy compression is used, but I can't find a link and it's apparently very difficult to search for this because all I get are descriptions of H.264 instead, so maybe I'm misremembering.

Maybe I should conduct some tests of my own when I'm feeling less lazy.

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Originally Posted by johnmeyer View Post
Some people don't like the solution because it is interlaced (see my comments above) and also because they don't like the effect of pulldown (repeated fields). However, having tried all the other alternatives to pulldown, and since I deal with film transfers every day of my life, it is my opinion that this gives you the best-looking, sharpest results, and without any problems that you get doing speed changes or de-interlacing using motion estimation, bobbing, etc.
I dislike this not because it's interlaced or because it's pulldown; I dislike this because it's unnecessary munging of the video. Maybe use something a bit less ancient than DVDs, like H.264 in Matroska with literally any frame rate you want, and you don't even have to do any destructive operation to your video (other than the lossy compression). Otoh, if you do need it to be a DVD for whatever reason, I second johnmeyer's suggestion.

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Last edited by colours; 22nd September 2015 at 05:52.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 06:06   #9  |  Link
feisty2
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@johnmeyer
1080p30 looks definitely way better than 1080i60
So yeah, interlacing is an evil b**ch
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Old 22nd September 2015, 06:45   #10  |  Link
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Originally Posted by feisty2 View Post
1080p30 looks definitely way better than 1080i60
So yeah, interlacing is an evil b**ch
Depends on what the content is

I'd rather watch 1080i60 for sports like hockey, football, UFC etc... than 1080p30
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Old 22nd September 2015, 06:48   #11  |  Link
kuchikirukia
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Originally Posted by feisty2 View Post
@johnmeyer
1080p30 looks definitely way better than 1080i60
So yeah, interlacing is an evil b**ch
Get with the times, grandpa. Miku hasn't been projected at under 60fps in years. There's a reason for that. 30fps just doesn't work in a 60fps world:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CEcEJxPDsk

60fps is how it should be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VP1YPL4VWc

Last edited by kuchikirukia; 22nd September 2015 at 07:00.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 07:08   #12  |  Link
feisty2
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Originally Posted by kuchikirukia View Post
Get with the times, grandpa. Miku hasn't been projected at under 60fps in years. There's a reason for that. 30fps just doesn't work in a 60fps world:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CEcEJxPDsk

60fps is how it should be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VP1YPL4VWc
60p is better than 30p, fact
And I'm talking about 60i and 30p
Not 60p and 30p
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Old 22nd September 2015, 07:14   #13  |  Link
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60p is better than 30p, fact
And I'm talking about 60i and 30p
Not 60p and 30p
Great grandma
How do you think those went out in 60fps? Bluray doesn't do 60p.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 07:17   #14  |  Link
feisty2
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1. Motion flowed to 60p
2. Native 60p, what bluray supports != the only thing a camera can do
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Old 22nd September 2015, 07:20   #15  |  Link
kuchikirukia
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1. Motion flowed to 60p
2. Native 60p, what bluray supports != the only thing a camera can do
They're 60i Blurays.
Mikupa Tokyo and Sapporo 2011 were released in 1080p30. Totally ruined them.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 07:23   #16  |  Link
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@johnmeyer
1080p30 looks definitely way better than 1080i60
So yeah, interlacing is an evil b**ch
Nope. Not in general. I recall the many (blind) tests and debates during the introduction of digital broadcast TV on this subject.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 07:23   #17  |  Link
feisty2
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If it was shot at 60i, then yeah, it destroyed the vid, I'm talking about NATIVE 30p, not bullshit deinterlaced from 60i
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Old 22nd September 2015, 07:24   #18  |  Link
Sparktank
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Ultra HD Blu-ray will support (up to) 60p.
James Cameron will love that when he films the next Avatars in >48fps.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 07:31   #19  |  Link
kuchikirukia
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I'm talking about NATIVE 30p, not bullshit deinterlaced from 60i
60i > native 30p. You can interpolate 60i's missing fields much better than you can 30p's missing frames.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 07:34   #20  |  Link
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The battle for digital broadcast TV was actually between 1080i or 720p. No clear winner.
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