Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Video Encoding > New and alternative video codecs

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 17th May 2018, 09:01   #681  |  Link
Phanton_13
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 86
Actually from why I heard AV1 is frozen at the level of features, now they are working out implementations bugs and the only thing that is really work on is the bitstream.
Phanton_13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2018, 19:32   #682  |  Link
Blue_MiSfit
Derek Prestegard IRL
 
Blue_MiSfit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 5,405
^^ Where did you hear this?
Blue_MiSfit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2018, 13:23   #683  |  Link
Phanton_13
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_MiSfit View Post
^^ Where did you hear this?
More that heard is read as it was in a discusion on IRC but I'm not sure on the channel.

Last edited by Phanton_13; 19th May 2018 at 13:27.
Phanton_13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2018, 16:25   #684  |  Link
bstrobl
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phanton_13 View Post
More that heard is read as it was in a discusion on IRC but I'm not sure on the channel.
https://freenode.logbot.info/aomedia/20180514
bstrobl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2018, 18:26   #685  |  Link
foxyshadis
ангел смерти
 
foxyshadis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Lost
Posts: 9,380
I wish they'd taken a look at the eighth-pel issue before going into informal feature freeze, that's going to completely hamstring 4K adoption and probably hurt even at 1080p. Just performing the equivalent search as AVC or HEVC will take so much longer, just due to much higher memory pressure, even if you pretend it's q-pel and only look at every other pixel.
__________________
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. ~ Ed Howdershelt
foxyshadis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2018, 00:06   #686  |  Link
nevcairiel
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hamburg/Germany
Posts: 9,384
Luckily encoders can choose to not use some feature if its deemed too slow, especially since 8-pel is optional anyway and has to be signaled in the frame header.
__________________
LAV Filters - open source ffmpeg based media splitter and decoders
nevcairiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2018, 07:49   #687  |  Link
foxyshadis
ангел смерти
 
foxyshadis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Lost
Posts: 9,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Luckily encoders can choose to not use some feature if its deemed too slow, especially since 8-pel is optional anyway and has to be signaled in the frame header.
Ah, I'd been under the impression that it was a required feature. With a permissive spec, it doesn't matter.
__________________
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. ~ Ed Howdershelt
foxyshadis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st May 2018, 14:54   #688  |  Link
LigH
German doom9/Gleitz SuMo
 
LigH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Germany, rural Altmark
Posts: 5,600
AOM v0.1.0-9559-g59d2aa958
__________________

New German Gleitz board
MediaFire: x264 | x265 | VPx | AOM | Xvid
LigH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd May 2018, 23:31   #689  |  Link
TD-Linux
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shevach View Post
I remember a paper "Motion-Compensating Prediction with Fractional-Pel Accuracy", by B. Girod, 1993 . If we omit a mathematical part of the article and go to the conclusion part, it's written (in my wording): for blocks 16x16 of TV video resolution 1/4-pel motion accuracy appears to be sufficient.
Others are correct in that 1/8-pel is inherited from VP9. That said, there are many reasons why the results from that 1993 paper may no longer be valid - for example, VP9 operates on up to 64x64 blocks (and 128x128 for AV1), meaning that spending an extra bit for a more precise MV can potentially have a much bigger payoff than in a codec limited to 16x16 prediction blocks.

It's also a relatively cheap feature to add - the subpel filters are already pretty large, so it's just adding another set of taps.
TD-Linux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st May 2018, 15:44   #690  |  Link
Shevach
Video compressionist
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Israel
Posts: 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by TD-Linux View Post
Others are correct in that 1/8-pel is inherited from VP9. That said, there are many reasons why the results from that 1993 paper may no longer be valid - for example, VP9 operates on up to 64x64 blocks (and 128x128 for AV1), meaning that spending an extra bit for a more precise MV can potentially have a much bigger payoff than in a codec limited to 16x16 prediction blocks.

It's also a relatively cheap feature to add - the subpel filters are already pretty large, so it's just adding another set of taps.
The problem is not spending additional 'bin' per vector component but how many comparisons are added for motion estimation in 1/8-pel MV precision?
Shevach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2018, 15:40   #691  |  Link
LigH
German doom9/Gleitz SuMo
 
LigH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Germany, rural Altmark
Posts: 5,600
AOM 0.1.0-9658-g265d15d46

New CLI option:

Code:
            --enable-fwd-kf=<arg>       Enable forward reference keyframes
__________________

New German Gleitz board
MediaFire: x264 | x265 | VPx | AOM | Xvid
LigH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2018, 16:36   #692  |  Link
mzso
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 788
Quote:
Originally Posted by LigH View Post
AOM 0.1.0-9658-g265d15d46

New CLI option:

Code:
            --enable-fwd-kf=<arg>       Enable forward reference keyframes
What does it do?
mzso is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th June 2018, 03:07   #693  |  Link
benwaggoner
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 2,584
Quote:
Originally Posted by mzso View Post
What does it do?
Something like Open GOP or RADL, I'd guess.
__________________
Ben Waggoner
Principal Video Specialist, Amazon Instant Video

My Compression Book

Amazon Instant Video is hiring! PM me if you're interested.
benwaggoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th June 2018, 11:06   #694  |  Link
Mierastor
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 14
"The new V76 is essentially the successor to Armís previous high-end video block, the Mali-V61, which was announced back in 2016. Understandably the world of video encoding and decoding doesnít evolve at quite as brisk a pace as GPUs, so Arm generally only revises their video blocks at about half the frequency. ... this processor will not include any support for the upcoming AV1 codec. While the bitstream specification for the eagerly anticipated codec was released a couple of months back, the timing was unfortunately after Arm had already completed the V76 RTL (never mind the fact that the specification isnít closed yet). So itís going to have to be the next video block after the V76 before Arm can include AV1 decode support. ... The very high encoding requirements of AV1 also mean that even after a decoder ships in a phone, weíre unlikely to see a full-featured encoder in a phone any time soon."

https://www.anandtech.com/show/12835...k-video-future
Mierastor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th June 2018, 11:11   #695  |  Link
nevcairiel
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hamburg/Germany
Posts: 9,384
Its fascinating how the PR stunt from AOM managed to mislead everyone into thinking the bitstream is actually done. And months later, its still not actually done!
__________________
LAV Filters - open source ffmpeg based media splitter and decoders
nevcairiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th June 2018, 23:02   #696  |  Link
Blue_MiSfit
Derek Prestegard IRL
 
Blue_MiSfit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 5,405
I guess it's still "wait and see".

I'm still not sure why I'd use AV1 as an OTT operator delivering 4k content. I have to make HEVC for everything that exists today. Even if AV1 ends up being a bit more efficient (and this comes down to encoder implementation) it will still cost me a huge amount of money to encode my library in both formats, so why would I?

I guess it all depends on what clients end up supporting it.
Blue_MiSfit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th June 2018, 09:00   #697  |  Link
Mr_Khyron
Member
 
Mr_Khyron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sweden
Posts: 76
Socionext Implements AV1 Encoder on FPGA over Cloud Service
http://socionextus.com/pressreleases...cloud-service/
Mr_Khyron is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11th June 2018, 10:27   #698  |  Link
LigH
German doom9/Gleitz SuMo
 
LigH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Germany, rural Altmark
Posts: 5,600
AOM v0.1.0-9742-g4e7b6f08f

Somewhat related to AV1: Google would like to patent (r)ANS, a speed optimized kind of Arithmetic Coding, specifically for its use in a video codec – despite Jarek Duda (its main inventor) having released this algorithm already to Public Domain in 2014...
__________________

New German Gleitz board
MediaFire: x264 | x265 | VPx | AOM | Xvid
LigH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th June 2018, 19:35   #699  |  Link
iwod
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 723
Quote:
Its fascinating how the PR stunt from AOM managed to mislead everyone into thinking the bitstream is actually done. And months later, its still not actually done!
May be I am Old? Does any one remember On2? I mean if anyone who has been on Doom9 long enough should know. On2's "marketing", has been the same for years, even after it has been acquired by Google, and even many of the On2 employees left ( May be only the engineering left and not their marketing? ), their marketing hasn't changed a bit. And now it is Open Media Alliance, which is still pretty much ( Google + Mozilla ) + many others, with Av1, google is taking the majority of responsibility.

Quote:
I guess it's still "wait and see".

I'm still not sure why I'd use AV1 as an OTT operator delivering 4k content. I have to make HEVC for everything that exists today. Even if AV1 ends up being a bit more efficient (and this comes down to encoder implementation) it will still cost me a huge amount of money to encode my library in both formats, so why would I?

I guess it all depends on what clients end up supporting it.
One of the reason were HEVC Advance were changing OTT operator % per stream. Which was ridiculous. It wasn't until this march did they decide to stop this terms. And Youtube ( Google ) and Netflix has a huge incentive to stop using HEVC because of this. Not to mention HEVC listening is a bag of hurt. Google and Netflix want to provide uses AVC as base and use VP9 / AV1 for everything else. So as a consumer if you want Youtube or Netflix 4K content you will have to buy a STB that support Vp9 or Av1. They won't be doing ANY HEVC content. One of the interesting thing is both Youtube and Netflix cant be watched in China, and while many "new" or "info" likes to claim they are the biggest in the "world". That "world" does not include China. Similar to how Amazon or eBay likes to claim they are the biggest X in the world, when compared to China they are at least 4 - 5 times smaller in sales volume. Since China is in Region 2, they paid much less and most of the devices are already shipped with HEVC, in fact they are already streaming HEVC whenever they can.


Quote:
Somewhat related to AV1: Google would like to patent (r)ANS, a speed optimized kind of Arithmetic Coding, specifically for its use in a video codec – despite Jarek Duda (its main inventor) having released this algorithm already to Public Domain in 2014..
This has been mentioned multiple times, not sure if they are really against patent codec or against codec that don't use their patents portfolio.

Anyway I really hate this licensing terms and price discovery period. It has happened with AVC, and it is happening again with HEVC. The group or their members want to extract maximum outrageous prices, and waited for years of failure in market before they relent. I sometimes wonder if there are any more thing we could do with AVC to further improve it as an baseline.
iwod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th June 2018, 22:30   #700  |  Link
benwaggoner
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 2,584
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_MiSfit View Post
I guess it's still "wait and see".

I'm still not sure why I'd use AV1 as an OTT operator delivering 4k content. I have to make HEVC for everything that exists today. Even if AV1 ends up being a bit more efficient (and this comes down to encoder implementation) it will still cost me a huge amount of money to encode my library in both formats, so why would I?

I guess it all depends on what clients end up supporting it.
Assuming the prior codec has full penetration,
codec_value=decoder_penetration * quality_@_perf advantage

So AV1's success is driven by decoder_penetration and quality_@_perf. The latter is important; 15% better at 10x encoding time doesn't really count unless encoding time was already more than fast enough. When live encoding is needed, or if encoding compute is a limit, MIPS/pixel is the limiting factor, and so AV1 implementations will compete with H.264, VP9, and HEVC at the same MIPS/pixel.

If devices wind up providing just H.264 and AV1, than the decision driver is whether the added compute, storage cost, and cache dilution is worth it. Even if compute was free, at a large scale supporting another codec is a huge operational expense and system complexity increase.
__________________
Ben Waggoner
Principal Video Specialist, Amazon Instant Video

My Compression Book

Amazon Instant Video is hiring! PM me if you're interested.
benwaggoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 18:53.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.