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Old 14th March 2018, 12:54   #1441  |  Link
mini-moose
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Originally Posted by r0lZ View Post
There have been several reports of x264 crashes lately (reported above in this thread). Try an older exe, and if you have an Intel CPU, try to disable the hardware acceleration for the MVC decoder.
OK, I will try that. Is HW acceleration something that's been added in recent versions or specific to FRIM? I can't recall any crashes before when DG was default.
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Old 14th March 2018, 14:01   #1442  |  Link
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No, hardware acceleration for MVC decoding exists since the beginning, but its default setting, "auto", means that it is used only if the right Intel drivers are installed on your system and of course if you have an Intel CPU supporting it. Since many Intel drivers have had bugs and numerous problems in the past, I suggest to force BD3D2MK3D to use the software decoders only, because they do not depend of the drivers (and the speed loss is not really important). So, if you don't experience problems with the hw acceleration turned off, try to update the Intel drivers, and set the setting to auto again. An update of the drivers *may* solve the problem.
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Old 14th March 2018, 14:49   #1443  |  Link
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No, hardware acceleration for MVC decoding exists since the beginning, but its default setting, "auto", means that it is used only if the right Intel drivers are installed on your system and of course if you have an Intel CPU supporting it. Since many Intel drivers have had bugs and numerous problems in the past, I suggest to force BD3D2MK3D to use the software decoders only.
thanks r0lZ. I will try that next time!

I think I may have suggested it before: Would it be possible to add an option to disable all the attachment files? I know they don't cause any harm, but I just don't like adding stuff I don't feel I need. I always edit down the mux options text file to remove them.
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Old 14th March 2018, 18:04   #1444  |  Link
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OK, the attachments are for documentation only, except the cover art, that you can easily omit just by not defining them in the 4th tab. I'll add a global option for the other attachments.
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Old 14th March 2018, 19:58   #1445  |  Link
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If your material works fine for h264+TAB and h265+SBS, it will certainly work well for h265+TAB. So, do that test only if YOU are interested in its result.
I am, just for thoroughness. Okay, here are the results for 2016 LG OLED65E6P 4K 3D TV.
  • Full resolution, not half.
  • Playback via Plex installed on the TV.
  • The special "1:2 / 2:1 for some LG" ratio setting has to be on for my TV.
  • H264 TAB - Works. Automatically switches to correct 3D mode.
  • H264 SBS - Works. Automatically switches to correct 3D mode.
  • H264 FS - Works. Automatically switches to correct 3D mode.*
  • H265 TAB - Works. Must manually switch to correct 3D mode.
  • H265 SBS - Works. Must manually switch to correct 3D mode.
  • H265 FS - Does not work. I suspect it would work if there was a manual choice for FS, but the graphical user interface for manual activation only supports TAB and SBS.
* This is the only mode supporting subtitles that can toggle on and off.

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I have a LG TV which works just fine with the default setting, as does my father's LG. I expect things to go the wrong way if this setting is changed and I don't change it back...
It might be helpful to share your year/model so others with LG TVs will know which way to go.
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Old 15th March 2018, 10:10   #1446  |  Link
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I'll add a global option for the other attachments.
thanks r0lZ
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Old 15th March 2018, 11:02   #1447  |  Link
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Thanks for the tests, Actionable Mango.

To clarify, can you describe exactly how you use Plex?

My old Samsung TV doesn't support the 3D subtitles, but with the Plex app, I can see them... indirectly. Of course, I have installed the Plex Media Server on the PC, but when using the TV app, I've been disappointed to see that the subtitles are there but not selectable "in this video mode". I have had to change the video playback mode to transcoding and now I can select the subtitles. In other words, the TV with the Plex app cannot directly display the subtitles. To see them, the media server must burn them over the video. That works, but since the video is transcoded in real time, the quality is less good than the original MKV, and the PC is working hard during the playback. So, for me, the Plex solution is better than nothing, but certainly not perfect.

Do you also need to transcode the movies to enable the subtitles, or can you see them with the direct streaming video mode? I suppose that the answer depends of the possibility of the TV to display embedded BD SUP subtitles. Unfortunately, my Samsung cannot.
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Last edited by r0lZ; 15th March 2018 at 11:06.
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Old 16th March 2018, 01:00   #1448  |  Link
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To clarify, can you describe exactly how you use Plex?
Sure. In all cases (SBS/TAB/FS) I can select subtitle streams directly in the Plex TV app with no warning about the video mode. However, the actual results are mixed:

For SBS and TAB, it is completely unusable because the TV does one or both of the following (it is inconsistent): Automatically drops out of 3D mode, and/or loses the correct ratio, becoming half-size. Additionally, it always shows the subtitles in either only the left or only the right view only (can't remember which).

For FS, it is substantially different. The subtitles come on and they look pretty decent. There can be some depth problems with the movie content in the area immediately in and around the letters. So it's slightly wonky but still very, very usable. I believe these are the 2D subtitles (as you stated earlier), because I encoded this three times with three different added depths (-10, 0, +10) and they all looked roughly the same to me. (I assume if they were 3D subtitles then there would have been very obvious differences). With no notification or action on my part, the server silently switches from Plex streaming to transcoding, but there is no apparent change in picture quality. *

* There is one big caveat here. My little Mac Mini could not keep up with transcoding the movie + subtitles. So although the PQ was still perfect, the framerate was like a slide show. My positive description above is based on a temporary addition of a second Plex server installed on a powerful gaming machine that had no problems with transcoding.

* There is also one small caveat. If I flip subtitles on and off too rapidly/frequently in FS files, it will occasionally show the poor symptoms I described for TAB/SBS. That's not really a valid use case though.

Last edited by Actionable Mango; 16th March 2018 at 01:03.
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Old 16th March 2018, 11:13   #1449  |  Link
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I see. So, t show the subtitles, it seems that the Plex transcoding is necessary anyway, and therefore a powerful PC. I can confirm that with Half-SBS, the 3D subtitles are displayed correctly with transcoding enabled and no change of the size of the subtitles. With Full-SBS, Full-TAB or FS, the problem is that the subtitles are in 2D anyway, and Plex can't help, even in transcode mode.
Thanks for the numerous tests and the useful information!
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Old 5th April 2018, 19:22   #1450  |  Link
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r0ltZ, can I humbly suggest a feature for your to-do list? A lot of 3D movies seem to get the shaft when it comes to audio. For example an ATMOS track is available for a movie, but only on the 2D disc. I don't really understand this, as both discs are typically included in the same case together, and looking at file sizes there is room on the 3D disc.

I think it would be great in BD3D2MK3D to be able to open two sources, one for the 3D video source, and the other for the same movie but with better audio such as ATMOS, then merge the two into a 3D MKV file with ATMOS.

I'm hoping this is easy, as MKVtoolnix does this and it's already in the bundle of tools used by BD3D2MK3D. The technique seems simple:
I simply used MakeMKV to rip both the 3D Blu-ray and the 2D Atmos Blu-ray into MKVs. Then opened MKVToolNix and muxed the 3D MVC video, chapters and subtitles from the first MKV with only the TrueHD7.1/Atmos audio track of the second MKV. Took about 25 minutes to compile and I have 1 perfect 3D MVC MKV Atmos file. No sync issues, no playback issues in Kodi 14/15 and just in fact finished watching it and it looked fantastic and sounded amazing!
Source for that quote is the "update" section of the first post here:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-net...l#post32777961

If not, I can just do this manually before starting BD3D2MK3D. But the great thing about BD3D2MK3D is to put many separate tools and processes into a single, easy-to-use GUI, which I really appreciate.

I also know I can't use this currently, because the LG's ARC out won't support ATMOS. But I don't know how I'll play these files in the future, and that could easily be Plex on a little media player box that supports bitstreaming ATMOS. I have already purchased two ceiling speakers.

Last edited by Actionable Mango; 5th April 2018 at 19:25.
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Old 5th April 2018, 21:53   #1451  |  Link
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Well, it's not so simple to do. If doing the work manually seems simple, it is much more hard to adapt the GUI to be able to open and deal with the two sources at the same time.

Furthermore, it is much more difficult to properly demux a 2DBD, as it can contain streams and especially audio in recent formats (like Atmos) that are prohibited in a 3DBD. Therefore, the tools that BD3D2MK3D uses currently are probably not well adapted to the 2D streams.

I add that if it is true that the streams from the 2D and 3D versions of the same movie from the same package are usually compatible, it's not necessarily the case if the 3D and 2D BDs have been bought separately. It is not rare that the movies begin with different studio logos with different lengths. There is no easy way to verify that, and I don't want to deal with the numerous sync problems that will certainly happen.

Finally, BD3D2MK3D is complex enough for the casual user. It will be difficult and probably not well understood if I add a new tab to open a 2DBD.

Anyway, BD3D2MK3D has been designed to make it as simple as possible to add external audio or subtitle tracks to the final MKV. You have just to demux them, and edit the __MUX_3D_OPTIONS file to add the new streams. Or you can use your method with MakeMKV. (Very good method BTW. However, I think the method can be even faster if you simply rip the audio alone, without the useless 2D AVC video stream, but I don't know if it's feasible with MakeMKV.)

Honestly, what you want to do is very specific to your needs, and I don't think it is worth implementing a complex method to do it automatically with BD3D2MK3D. Sorry.
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Old 5th April 2018, 21:58   #1452  |  Link
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r0ltZ, can I humbly suggest a feature for your to-do list? A lot of 3D movies seem to get the shaft when it comes to audio. For example an ATMOS track is available for a movie, but only on the 2D disc. I don't really understand this, as both discs are typically included in the same case together, and looking at file sizes there is room on the 3D disc.

I think it would be great in BD3D2MK3D to be able to open two sources, one for the 3D video source, and the other for the same movie but with better audio such as ATMOS, then merge the two into a 3D MKV file with ATMOS.

I never looked, this is a great idea though, thanks. Iíll make sure to check all my 3d again and update as needed.
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Old 6th April 2018, 12:41   #1453  |  Link
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Hello r0lZ,

First of all, thank you very much for this astonishing software.
This is what I have been looking for for a long time now. Currently, for play back of my movies (both 2DBD mkv-s, 3DBD mkv-s UHD HDR mkv-s, and DVD mkv-s made by makemkv), I am using JRiver and madVR as the video renderer. Recently, I have decided to reencode my movie collection using StaxRip and BD3D2MK3D to save a lot of space for my NAS while maintaining some "visual transparency". But now I have met an "issue" at the forum of madVR. madVR simply doesn't want to treat any 3D formats as input correctly excluding MVC-3D streams. Currently, via JRiver, I can choose if I want to play only the 2D part or both the 2D and 3D part of a BD3D mkv. According to my choice madVR does the rendering job correctly. So, I really do not want to make two versions of a BD3D to be playable both in 2D and 3D (do not want to lose functionality by converting to an other format while saving a lot in size). Is it possible?

Your help would be appreciated.

Thanks again for your great software.

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Old 6th April 2018, 16:39   #1454  |  Link
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I'm not sure I understand. BD3D2MK3D generates only the 3D version of the movie in Half or Full SBS, TAB or FS (although you can use it to encode also a 2D version of the same 3D movie). A good player should be able to play only a single view of the 3D MKV, but of course if you encode in Half-SBS or Half-TAB, you will have only the half resolution in one direction. (On my Samsung TV, I have to go to the options to select the 2D playback of a 3D movie. It's not really easy, but it's possible.)

In the other hand, if you want something to re-encode a BD50 and compress it enough to burn a BD25 or buils an AVC+MVC 3D MKV, and keep the possibility to play it in 2D or 3D, you have to use a tool that can encode in MVC. BD3D2MK3D cannot do that. See the tools associated with the FRIM encoder, based on the Intel libraries, the only free MVC encoder. The quality of the encoding is somewhat leak, certainly less good than the encodings made with x264 or x265, but it can encode in MVC, and therefore keep the original BD3D format.

Personally, I prefer an half resolution well encoded, but it's a matter of taste.
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Old 6th April 2018, 18:11   #1455  |  Link
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Anyway, BD3D2MK3D has been designed to make it as simple as possible to add external audio or subtitle tracks to the final MKV. You have just to demux them, and edit the __MUX_3D_OPTIONS file to add the new streams.
Thanks for your consideration and response. I'll look into this.
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Old 6th April 2018, 19:57   #1456  |  Link
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Personally, I prefer an half resolution well encoded, but it's a matter of taste
I am still thinking about a (HTAB + 2D version)/3DBD as well as a solution. I have an LG C6V, anyway.Comparing e.g. HTAB to FTAB I have half of the horizontal resolution for the TV to begin with. It will then upscale both of the images to it's native resolution (4K in this case) then be throwing away half of the horizontal resolution for each eye (passive technology). Am I right? Based on this method I would assume FTAB should give somewhat better result (assuming identical encoding settings) but maybe I would not even sense any of the difference.

I do not want to store 3DBD-s, they are just too huge if you are a 3D fan with a big collection of movies. Reserving an average capacity of ~35-40GB on a HDD/3D movie in the magical world of x264/x265 and "powerful" processors, is a nonsense and maybe totally irrational as well.

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Old 6th April 2018, 21:48   #1457  |  Link
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Am I right?
I'm not sure. I have an active Samsung TV, and it doesn't work like a passive LG. In my case, the full resolution is used anyway, so indeed FTAB (or FSBS) is better, as nothing is thrown away. In the case of a passive LG, I think that the even lines of the TV are used for one eye (with a specific polarization), and the odd lines for the other eye (with the opposite polarization). That means that theoretically, you don't need the full vertical resolution, as only one every two lines are really displayed. (It's also why HSBS is not recommended for LG, as the horizontal resolution is divided by 2 during the encoding, and the vertical during the playback.)

Of course, if you want to play the 3D movie in 2D, FTAB is preferable, as you will watch the 2D movie in its original resolution.

Honestly, I don't know if the LG begins by upscaling the image, or if it is smart enough to understand that it's useless. But anyway, even if it does it, the gain in quality will be minimal, or even null. But with a 4K YV, all original lines of a Full-HD 3D movie can be displayed, so the problem depends of the resolution of the TV.

For 2D+3D playback of the same MKV, you can perhaps also include TWO video streams in the same MKV. A 3D HTAB and a full-res 2D. Something similar to what Actionable Mango does with the audio streams, but for the video. It's technically possible with Mkvtoolnix. But I don't think that many players will let you chose what video stream to play. They will probably just pick the first one. And if you encode in FTAB, that will be a waste of disc space.

I agree that storing BD ISOs or physical burned BD25 is not a good idea. With a good h265 encoding, you can have an almost as good quality for 1/10 of the file size. But on the other hand, the SBS, TAB and FS frame packing methods are not well defined, and suffer several problems that the 3DBD do not have (such as the problem of the correct aspect ratio to adopt, discussed previously in this thread).
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Old 7th April 2018, 12:41   #1458  |  Link
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Thank you very much for the explanation.

I am going to choose FTAB played via Kodi v17 as for 3D with a 3D subtitle track (forced subs) burnt in in my language and with 1pc of audio track using your magical software. The usefulness of a 2D version of the same film is still a question for me because of the drastic expansion of UHD HDR movies.
I do not want both a HD and an UHD version of the same movie on my NAS.

Again, thank you very much!
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Old 9th April 2018, 21:20   #1459  |  Link
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Sure. In all cases (SBS/TAB/FS) I can select subtitle streams directly in the Plex TV app with no warning about the video mode. However, the actual results are mixed:

For SBS and TAB, it is completely unusable because the TV does one or both of the following (it is inconsistent): Automatically drops out of 3D mode, and/or loses the correct ratio, becoming half-size. Additionally, it always shows the subtitles in either only the left or only the right view only (can't remember which).

For FS, it is substantially different. The subtitles come on and they look pretty decent. There can be some depth problems with the movie content in the area immediately in and around the letters. So it's slightly wonky but still very, very usable. I believe these are the 2D subtitles (as you stated earlier), because I encoded this three times with three different added depths (-10, 0, +10) and they all looked roughly the same to me. (I assume if they were 3D subtitles then there would have been very obvious differences). With no notification or action on my part, the server silently switches from Plex streaming to transcoding, but there is no apparent change in picture quality. *

* There is one big caveat here. My little Mac Mini could not keep up with transcoding the movie + subtitles. So although the PQ was still perfect, the framerate was like a slide show. My positive description above is based on a temporary addition of a second Plex server installed on a powerful gaming machine that had no problems with transcoding.

* There is also one small caveat. If I flip subtitles on and off too rapidly/frequently in FS files, it will occasionally show the poor symptoms I described for TAB/SBS. That's not really a valid use case though.
I have the same LG E6 TV and here are my observations after many tests:
- you can encode a Full TAB or SBS 3D movie which will not loose its aspect ratio with subtitles, when you select the following option : "Full SBS/..." / "Use 32:9..." and "use respectively 1:2 and 2:1..." AND you manually edit the aspect ratio in file "__MUX_3D_OPTIONS.txt" to "16/9" instead of the value you'll find there
- however, the subtitles will have problems: in FTAB, they will display both up and down of the picture; in FSBS, they will display only in one side (left). The reason is that the subtitles pictures are generated in a format that has not the same size as the FTAB or FSBS encoded picture (ex: 1920x1080 instead of 1920x2160); and I think the TV needs the 3D subtitle picture to be the same size as the FTAB picture to display it correctly along the movie picture.

So, my guess for a solution to this problem is to have options to generate the 3D subtitle pictures with the same resolution & aspect ration as the FTAB or FSBS frame instead of the target (2D) size.

As for Frame Sequence, I could not make it work properly, there are too few players out there able to play it correctly.

Meanwhile, if somebody could give me some hints for generating the 3D subtitles at the desired resolution? Is there a way to tweak BD3D2MK3D ?
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Old 10th April 2018, 09:40   #1460  |  Link
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Welcome to the Doom9 forums, dm9656.
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[...] option : "Full SBS/..." / "Use respectively 32:9..." [...] AND you manually edit the aspect ratio in file "__MUX_3D_OPTIONS.txt" to "16/9" instead of the value you'll find there
It's a contradiction. If you DON'T tick the option "Use respectively 32:9 or 16:18 AR", then the aspect ratio in __MUX_3D_OPTIONS.txt will be 16:9. It's the only thing that is changed with that option.

The 2:1 or 1:2 SAR is different, as it is used by x264 or x265 during the encoding and is included in the video stream itself.

So, if I understand correctly, for your LG, you should set the AR to 16:9 and the SAR to 1:2 / 2:1, and it should not be necessary to manually edit any file.

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- however, the subtitles will have problems: in FTAB, they will display both up and down of the picture; in FSBS, they will display only in one side (left). The reason is that the subtitles pictures are generated in a format that has not the same size as the FTAB or FSBS encoded picture (ex: 1920x1080 instead of 1920x2160); and I think the TV needs the 3D subtitle picture to be the same size as the FTAB picture to display it correctly along the movie picture.
Correct. Unfortunately, currently, the free tools that are able to edit the SUP files are made for the standard resolutions, SD (PAL or NTSC), "small-HD" (720p) and Full-HD (1080p). The other formats (UHD and 3D) are currently not supported.

Note also that currently, it is not possible to generate the 3D subtitles for Full-SBS or Full-TAB, as they require a larger resolution (in one direction only) than Full-HD.

Some players are able to display the 2D subtitles correctly, including PotPlayer, my preferred video player for Windows. It has an option to display the subtitles before or after the rendering of the video. For the 3D movies, that means that it can display the subtitles over the whole SBS/TAB video, before the cut of the two views, and that leads to the problem you have described. But it can also display the 2D subtitle after the cut of the two views, and in that case, the 2D subtitles are perfectly centered on screen, like in the original BD. (It's the first mode that is required to display properly the 3D subtitles for Half-SBS/TAB, as they have the same resolution and dual view as the 3D video format, and the second mode must be used to display the 2D subtitles over any 3D video.) Perhaps your TV or player has a similar option?

Otherwise, many players have also an option to ignore the position of the subtitles encoded in the SUP file and display them anyway somewhere in the bottom-center of the screen, or in the black bars of a Cinemascope movie. Such option can help too.

Unfortunately, the hardware players (TVs, projectors, BD-players and other multimedia boxes) have often only a very basic player with very few options, and it is not possible to modify the subtitles for proper playback of 3D material.
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So, my guess for a solution to this problem is to have options to generate the 3D subtitle pictures with the same resolution & aspect ration as the FTAB or FSBS frame instead of the target (2D) size.
Correct, but as I wrote above, the current tools are not able to do it. Otherwise, I would have implemented that option.

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As for Frame Sequence, I could not make it work properly, there are too few players out there able to play it correctly.
FS is indeed not well supported, but it is necessary for some old "3D ready" projectors that cannot handle the (relatively new) SBS and TAB formats.

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Meanwhile, if somebody could give me some hints for generating the 3D subtitles at the desired resolution? Is there a way to tweak BD3D2MK3D ?
As I wrote above, there is currently no way to generate 3D subtitles for Full-SBS or Full-TAB. Try to play with the options of your player, or connect your PC to your TV and use a good software player that can handle the subtitles correctly to send a correctly decoded video stream with the subtitles (@23.976x2 fps) to the TV via HDMI.

In the future, perhaps a better tool to edit UHD SUP files will be available. I am currently helping someone to write an app that should be able to produce UHD 3D subtitles, but it is not ready yet...
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