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Old 5th March 2019, 19:53   #55181  |  Link
DMU
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Hi all.
Interesting, why NGU AA does not work in quadrupling (4x) mode like NGU Soft/Standard/Sharp for image upscaling? Оr am I setting something up wrong?
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Old 5th March 2019, 20:14   #55182  |  Link
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@vanden Workaround for you: in the settings of LAV Video, uncheck all the 4:2:0 and 4:2:2 output formats. This will force LAV to do the chroma upscaling itself in software. It will also convert to RGB, it won't output 4:4:4 YCC.
Of course this will probably be lower quality than madVR's own processing, but your GPU is in way over its head with madVR's HDR tonemapping.
Also for HDR10 with that setup, LAV will still output RGB32 unless you uncheck it and force RGB48 but I don't know which of those is the best for madVR.

Unfortunately I'm not sure it's even possible to use DXVA only for chroma upscaling if you're not also using it for decoding, deinterlacing, or image scaling (maybe madshi can give more information on this).
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Old 5th March 2019, 21:06   #55183  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Its a Mid-2019 screen without HDMI 2.1, so better to pass anyway.
Maybe next year we'll finally get complete screens without tech shortcomings like that.
They saw no real need for it. They said you can add the 2.1 featureset to 2.0b anyway.
Just a shame we still haven't got 120hz display refresh.

Last edited by ryrynz; 5th March 2019 at 21:10.
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Old 5th March 2019, 21:16   #55184  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
They saw no real need for it. They said you can add the 2.1 featureset to 2.0b anyway
I see a need for it, specifically when running a HTPC, because the bandwidth of HDMI 2.0 is just too low - and thats not something you can add without a HDMI 2.1 transceiver.

I want to be able to run at 4K 10/12-bit no matter the refresh rate, which is not something I can do with HDMI 2.0, because 60Hz exceeds the available bandwidth.

Also, eARC, with streaming services also introducing better audio, and many clients for such services being baked into the TV itself.
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Old 5th March 2019, 21:39   #55185  |  Link
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
I see a need for it
Yeah same, although we are in the minority of their customers.
LG got you sorted this year.
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Old 5th March 2019, 21:55   #55186  |  Link
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Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
LG got you sorted this year.
Indeed, and I applaud them for commiting to it.
Although I'll probably only start seriously considering a new TV next year. Finally the tech has caught up, both with HDMI 2.1 and HDR performance, and next year we'll hopefully also see widespread DV and HDR10+ support like that Panasonic has.
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Old 5th March 2019, 23:08   #55187  |  Link
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Would love to see a shootout of madshi's HDR box vs any other TV's Dynamic Tone Mapping, madshi may I suggest providing Vincent Teoh from HDTVTest a review sample once it's available?
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Old 5th March 2019, 23:29   #55188  |  Link
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It wouldn't really be a fair comparison because the TV can control its internal PQ scaling and madVR can't. It can only send rescaled PQ values to the display and it is up to the display as to what it does with these values. There would be have to be some sort of mode in the display and some controls to guarantee that the output is displayed 1:1 and not displayed at a different luminance or with any other unwanted color space conversions.

It would make more sense to compare directly with an external processor such as the Lumagen Radiance Pro. Seems like a guarantee that Kris Deering of Sound & Vision/AVS Forum will make this comparison because he is always reading the madVR thread while simultaneously selling Radiance Pro's.
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Old 5th March 2019, 23:36   #55189  |  Link
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FYI, Soulnight at AVS Forum started a thread about the Envy. I just saw it today and found some interesting tidbits about people's expectations for this thing:

madVR ENVY: Anticipation thread!

One limitation not mentioned versus a HTPC is that madVR doesn't have access to the decoded frames. If you used a Nvidia Shield as the source, for example, you would still have to live with the Shield's flawed video output. Devices like the Shield do let you choose different output resolutions for different content, and there are obvious advantages such as accessing a few 4K HDR movies that will never be ported to UHD Blu-ray or 4K HDR Netflix and Amazon TV content.
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Old 6th March 2019, 00:02   #55190  |  Link
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@ el Filou
Thank you, this is a track until madshi statu on this problem.


For all the tests following LAV is in SOFTWARE Decoding Mode, File 1440p 10bit HDR (MPCHC x64).

If I uncheck P010 in LAV : LAV makes the converssion 10bit->16bit and in madVR I enter in 16 bit 420 (P016) and madVR makes a chroma upscaling in DXVA Mode !!!
I guess the HDR ton mapping is done in 16bit in this case ? but it does not have to be really embarrassing.
it works well GPU stable @ 58% CPU @ 15% :


If I uncheck P010 and P016 in LAV : LAV makes the convention 10bit->8bit in madVR I enter in 8bit 420 (NV12) and madVR makes a chroma upscaling in DXVA Mode !!!
I guess the HDR ton mapping is done in 8bit in this case ? Not ideal if that's the case.
it works well GPU stable @ 55% CPU @ 12% :


If I uncheck all 420 (NV12, YV12, P010 and P016) and 422 (YuY2, UyUV, P210, v210 and P216) in LAV : In madVR I enter in RGB32 (LAV does chroma upscaling with I do not know what algorithm + convention YUV to RGB).
I guess the HDR ton mapping is done in 8bit in this case ? Not ideal if that's the case.
it does not work well, some presentation glitches GPU @ 79% CPU @ 19% :


If I have everything checked in LAV : in madVR I enter in 10bit 420 (P010) and madVR does a chroma upscaling using TextureUnits/PixelShader (Bilinear, Cubic ...) and it does not work GPU @ 92% CPU @ 17% :


If I have everything checked in LAV and screen set @ 2944x1656 : in madVR I enter in 10bit 420 (P010) and madVR makes a chroma+Luma upscaling (2560x1440->2944x1656) in DXVA Mode.
it works well GPU stable @ 71% CPU @ 16%
https://i.goopics.net/wEv2y.jpg


So madVR can use DXVA for chroma upscaling in 8bit (NV12 and RGB32) and in 16bit (P016) but not in 10bit (P010) ! it's very weird anyway !



@ tp4tissue
Yes it is greedy in electricity ...
For noise I modify the system that manages the speed of the fans ... it's really much less noisy.
For the screen it's a LaCie electronblue IV 22" CRT screen.
Support :
2880x2160 @49-50Hz (4/3)
3104x1746 @49-50Hz (16/9)
2944x1656 @49-60Hz (16/9)
2560x1600 @49-60Hz (16/10)
2560x1440 @49-72Hz (16/9)
2240x1680 @49-75Hz (4/3)
1920x1080 @49-120Hz (16/9)
1600x900 @49-144Hz (16/9)
Etc …


Edit :
For all tests following LAV is in SOFTWARE Decode Mode, File 3840x1606 10bit HDR (MPCHC x86 + Reclock). Screen in 3104x1756 and in MPCHC : Video Frame/Normal Size.

All the tests by modifying LAV does not work (NV12, P016, RGB32), example in NV12 :
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/8541/1MFFhC.jpg

On the other hand If everything is ticked in LAV (P010) and I put -2% on the zoom in MPCHC (the image is resized in 3766x1576 / via DXVA chroma+Luma upscaling) it goes :
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/2303/Fw3uXy.jpg


I guess in P010 and just DXVA choma upscaling it would be perfect ...

Last edited by vanden; 10th March 2019 at 12:35.
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Old 6th March 2019, 02:43   #55191  |  Link
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@ vanden.

Even if you get it to play with the lav-tweaks you're doing. We can not easily verify that everything is rendering correctly.

What you can do is, use SDR test patterns, look for banding (gradient), black lvl and white lvl.

If those 3 elements checks out, on whatever setting you've gotten it to play smoothly with, That's as far as can be gotten, without madshi chkn' it out personally, which he's probably too busy for.


The other easier way of course, is Buy a used 1060 6gb, 1070 or a new 2060..

Is your crt calibrated ?
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Old 6th March 2019, 12:18   #55192  |  Link
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@ tp4tissue

The best solution would be that DXVA chroma upscaling works with 10bit file.

Unable to use a geforce 10 with vga and the adapter DP->VGA are limited to a RAMDAC of 330Mhz ... 2880x2160 @ 50 HZ = 439.6 Mhz ...
For non-probe calibration it is limited...

Last edited by vanden; 6th March 2019 at 12:34.
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Old 6th March 2019, 14:33   #55193  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vanden View Post
@ tp4tissue

The best solution would be that DXVA chroma upscaling works with 10bit file.

Unable to use a geforce 10 with vga and the adapter DP->VGA are limited to a RAMDAC of 330Mhz ... 2880x2160 @ 50 HZ = 439.6 Mhz ...
For non-probe calibration it is limited...
Does the 650 ti use a 600mhz ramdac ?

Have you tried this Sunix adapter.

SUNIX DPU3000 <allegedly can do pixel clock 500mhz>

You don't need 2880x2160 for movies. use a 16:9 res, and you can do it in <400mhz envelope, The mask probably won't resolve that resolution anyway, it'll just look blurry, I guess some vga enthusiasts argue For the vaseline look @ higher res, buh, clearly the manufacturers don't think that way, otherwise they'd slap the higher native res sticker on the box..
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Last edited by tp4tissue; 6th March 2019 at 15:11.
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Old 6th March 2019, 14:46   #55194  |  Link
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Why does this even matter? Or any of your questions/posts for this issue?

@vanden described his problem very well and I think for some system dxva scaling for chroma only could be useful. So its up to madshi to change it if he agrees.
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Old 6th March 2019, 15:14   #55195  |  Link
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Originally Posted by nussman View Post
Why does this even matter? Or any of your questions/posts for this issue?

@vanden described his problem very well and I think for some system dxva scaling for chroma only could be useful. So its up to madshi to change it if he agrees.
The whole point of madvr is to be more accurate, by keeping the unstable/imprecise dxva @ bay.

I don't object to the feature of dxva chroma, but pushing hard for it is going in the opposite direction of quality, madshi is 1 guy, m0ar Ngu development or m0ar dxva chroma ?
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Old 6th March 2019, 17:10   #55196  |  Link
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
Do you guys think this will be a custom asic or fpga ?
Well, the name (eNVY) and the font/color used gave me an idea that if it is a processing box for non-HTPC use, then it might be software running on Tegra hardware - Shield TV (does it have HDMI in tho?) or more likely the newer Tegra modules. They have some GPU power and also lots of neural network acceleration for upscaling use. Not a cheap hardware though, similarly to FPGAs. (What do I win if true? )
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Old 6th March 2019, 18:57   #55197  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
The whole point of madvr is to be more accurate, by keeping the unstable/imprecise dxva @ bay. I don't object to the feature of dxva chroma, but pushing hard for it is going in the opposite direction of quality
vanden has to use DXVA chroma/scaling because he's using madVR for the (very) high quality HDR tonemapping and with his GPU he has to make a choice. I think it's valid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
, madshi is 1 guy, m0ar Ngu development or m0ar dxva chroma ?
That is a false dilemma as the work required to implement/develop those two is very different.
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Old 6th March 2019, 20:58   #55198  |  Link
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
The whole point of madvr is to be more accurate, by keeping the unstable/imprecise dxva @ bay.
Not exactly. DXVA isn't quite as bad as you make out in many situations.
Sometimes sacrificing chroma quality is actually a worthwhile trade off.
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Old 6th March 2019, 22:10   #55199  |  Link
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Originally Posted by el Filou View Post
vanden has to use DXVA chroma/scaling because he's using madVR for the (very) high quality HDR tonemapping and with his GPU he has to make a choice. I think it's valid.That is a false dilemma as the work required to implement/develop those two is very different.
I'm aware of why he's doing what he's doing, and I never said it's invalid.

I did suggest, that the whole chain would have to receive Validation, and that could be quite a while, if it happens at all.

An easier and faster solution is to buy a slightly stronger card with full decode, using a known working process chain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
Not exactly. DXVA isn't quite as bad as you make out in many situations.
Sometimes sacrificing chroma quality is actually a worthwhile trade off.
There's a difference between Not ideal, Not always, and Why.

If the possibility betrays the original intention to --a certain-- degree, we usually solve it some other way. and That's what I'm trying to highlight.

For example, why even use Madvr, why not use custom presenter, it's faster, and you get an image with lower chroma quality lower luma quality, etc.

We use madvr because we want to get the most quality out of the thing, but then now, we hold back the minimal amount of resources that madvr needs to work properly. What was the point ?

SOMETIMES, throwing money at something, IS the best solution, (not the only solution, just the fastest, known/tested and reliable)
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Old 6th March 2019, 22:34   #55200  |  Link
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lol.
In the exact same post you first say you understand vanden's need:
Quote:
Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
I'm aware of why he's doing what he's doing, and I never said it's invalid.
but then just two sentences later you ask again why bother to use madVR if it's to sacrifice quality here or there:
Quote:
For example, why even use Madvr, why not use custom presenter, it's faster, and you get an image with lower chroma quality lower luma quality, etc.
We use madvr because we want to get the most quality out of the thing, but then now, we hold back the minimal amount of resources that madvr needs to work properly. What was the point ?
The point is to benefit from madVR's unique HDR tonemapping, which MPC's custom presenter cannot do.
Quote:
SOMETIMES, throwing money at something, IS the best solution, (not the only solution, just the fastest, known/tested and reliable)
Tbh, if he's using a CRT with UHD sources, I'm not sure he's gonna see the difference between DXVA chroma upscaling and a higher quality one by madVR. Are you suggesting he also throws money to change his display?
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