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Old 17th May 2011, 20:34   #3181  |  Link
mindbomb
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question, perhaps slightly off topic since it's likely an arcsoft issue, but do you guys notice that with the arcsoft dll, for anything outside of 6 channels, it can intelligently choose the sample format, but for 6 channels, it always uses 24 bit pcm?

is there a a technical explanation for that?
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Old 17th May 2011, 21:04   #3182  |  Link
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Nev, with some more general use of 0.26 I find that in general the new AV sync option for AC3 bitstreaming causes sync issues. I think DTS is ok, but haven't done much checking on that one.
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Old 17th May 2011, 21:12   #3183  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Andy o View Post
There are metadata for proper downmixing in the DTS and Dolby codecs though, and once you've already decoded, it would be hard for the post-processor or renderer to downmix as the encoder intended. I don't see real-world problems with just letting Windows downmix though, but then you have to ditch WASAPI exclusive.
Yea, I guess I see your point. Windows Audio, however? Not a chance in hell in my setup. I don't trust it. Plus it'll upsample (I would hope! ) the audio because you'll at least want it set to 96/24. So a 48/16 native track like Kill Bill would get upsampled to 96/24. Not such a bad thing as it's really just padding, but, unnecessary IMO. Personally in my setup I just decode the audio with the correct number of channels and then let my Pio deal with it.
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Old 17th May 2011, 21:14   #3184  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Originally Posted by VipZ View Post
Nev, with some more general use of 0.26 I find that in general the new AV sync option for AC3 bitstreaming causes sync issues. I think DTS is ok, but haven't done much checking on that one.
So when turning it off, you think its better?

If so, then its all in your mind, AC3 is perfectly packed into all containers, the sync option will not affect it at all, unless there is an actual sync problem.
I have not seen a single AC3 file that had any jitter whatsoever, so there is no chance the sync option gets confused (unless you have a special file again). The only possibility would be that my duration calculations for AC3 bitstreaming are wrong, but that would show no matter if the sync option is on or not (same problem DTS suffered from on your special file, but maybe not so severe)

AC3 is really one of the easiest formats to get right, especially because everyone knows how to mux it perfectly, so i don't see any margin for error there.

I should really figure out a way for you to produce debug logs. Every action the AV sync option takes is output there, if it does anything at all.
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Last edited by nevcairiel; 17th May 2011 at 21:20.
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Old 17th May 2011, 21:18   #3185  |  Link
Andy o
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Yea, I guess I see your point. Windows Audio, however? Not a chance in hell in my setup. I don't trust it. Plus it'll upsample (I would hope! ) the audio because you'll at least want it set to 96/24. So a 48/16 native track like Kill Bill would get upsampled to 96/24. Not such a bad thing as it's really just padding, but, unnecessary IMO. Personally in my setup I just decode the audio with the correct number of channels and then let my Pio deal with it.
The Pioneers have a similar "virtual" back channel option than what I mentioned about the Windows mixer, and I would use it if I only ran 5.1 channels. I see Windows's mixer getting a bad rap almost everywhere, but really, I haven't seen much evidence of it messing up anything substantial. Resampling (changing sample rate) is not just padding though, but again, haven't seen evidence that Windows's resampling is bad at all. I don't think it's that hard to do good resampling these days anyway, and even then, you can resample with ReClock to whatever Windows is set at, and it won't do again even if not using WASAPI exclusive.

My main reason not to use it is the channel switching, but that's more of a problem when you're running 7.1 channels. If I was using just 5.1 I'd probably be happy with DirectSound.

Last edited by Andy o; 17th May 2011 at 21:21.
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Old 17th May 2011, 21:22   #3186  |  Link
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So when turning it off, you think its better?

If so, then its all in your mind, AC3 is perfectly packed into all containers, the sync option will not affect it at all, unless there is an actual sync problem.
I have not seen a single AC3 file that had any jitter whatsoever, so there is no chance the sync option gets confused (unless you have a special file again). The only possibility would be that my duration calculations for AC3 bitstreaming are wrong, but that would show no matter if the sync option is on or not (same problem DTS suffered from on your special file, but maybe not so severe)
Yep, for me bitstream with it off is the same as decoded with it on, I find it quite clear that the sync is bit off with it on when bitstreaming. If I had to guess I would put it at around 400ms.

Edit: I have VS installed, so just let me know on what debugging or whatever you need me to do
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Last edited by VipZ; 17th May 2011 at 21:30.
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Old 17th May 2011, 21:26   #3187  |  Link
Andy o
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Originally Posted by mindbomb View Post
question, perhaps slightly off topic since it's likely an arcsoft issue, but do you guys notice that with the arcsoft dll, for anything outside of 6 channels, it can intelligently choose the sample format, but for 6 channels, it always uses 24 bit pcm?

is there a a technical explanation for that?
I don't know why, might be a harmless bug, but I can confirm it, at least with 5.1 vs 7.1 16-bit content.
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Old 17th May 2011, 21:29   #3188  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Andy o View Post
The Pioneers have a similar "virtual" back channel option than what I mentioned about the Windows mixer, and I would use it if I only ran 5.1 channels. I see Windows's mixer getting a bad rap almost everywhere, but really, I haven't seen much evidence of it messing up anything substantial. Resampling (changing sample rate) is not just padding though, but again, haven't seen evidence that Windows's resampling is bad at all. I don't think it's that hard to do good resampling these days anyway, and even then, you can resample with ReClock to whatever Windows is set at, and it won't do again even if not using WASAPI exclusive.

My main reason not to use it is the channel switching, but that's more of a problem when you're running 7.1 channels. If I was using just 5.1 I'd probably be happy with DirectSound.
I have a bad taste in my mouth when it comes to Windows Audio. Probably because I suffered through TMT3's evolution of decoding. And have seen numerous problems with PDVD's channel mapping over the years, as well. Is that a Windows Audio problem? Not entirely, but, it certainly didn't help matters. For me I want it simple...decode audio, send decoded audio *AS IS* to the receiver. I trust my Pio. I don't trust Windows. That's why I've preferred bitstreaming all these past few years. However, I'm ok with decoding if I can get the decoded PCM to the receiver untouched. For that I need exclusive mode. ReClock is working well for that right now and MC16 is something I need to test more. In any case, I'm good.
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Old 17th May 2011, 21:29   #3189  |  Link
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Yep, for me bitstream with it off is the same as decoded with it on, I find it quite clear that the sync is bit off with it on when bitstreaming. If I had to guess I would put it at around 400ms.
Like i said, i don't think thats possible, unless you have some kind of broken file that i have not encountered before.

The A/V sync option is not constantly adjusting things, its just monitoring, and keeping track of things. If it sees a drift in timestamps, it'll adjust. But it really has to go bad for that to happen.

Maybe i should've named it differently, so peoples minds dont directly associate it with any sync issues they think to see. Its a funny thing, really. To a certain degree, if you think there are issues, you'll see issues.

Does it happen for all AC3 files?

You're compiling now, right?
You can launch MPC-HC from within Visual Studio, and get me a debug log.

- Set workspace profile to debug
- Set LAV Audio as startup project (right click on it in the solution explorer)
- Open LAV Audio project properties, in the Debugging tab (under Configuration Properties), set the MPC-HC executable as "Command"

Remember to register the output file with regsvr32 first, don't move it, it has to stay in the output folder (bin_Win32d)

Launch, open file, watch the Output box. All the thread infos and dll loading messages you can ignore, but during playback LAV Audio will say something like "Jitter Stats: min: 0 - max: 0 - avg: 0", 0's everwhere are perfect.
If the A/V sync option does somethign, it'll say "::Deliver(): corrected A/V sync by <number>"

Look for those.
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Last edited by nevcairiel; 17th May 2011 at 21:36.
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Old 17th May 2011, 21:44   #3190  |  Link
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Ok I will do that and let you know.
With the sync at 1st its always ok, but at some stage it does seem to change, its not a drifting sync. I will watch something with it on and keep my eye on the debugging to see if the event you mentioned shows.
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Old 17th May 2011, 21:45   #3191  |  Link
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I'll try to get soem debug file logging going.
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Old 17th May 2011, 22:05   #3192  |  Link
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Here is the debug log http://www.mediafire.com/?y96sec6k4p9pbgw

There weren't any AV sync messaged you asked to look out for, maybe that log will prove it my mind playing tricks on me or there is a possible issue

Surprised I got it going without much effort
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Old 17th May 2011, 22:26   #3193  |  Link
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Yeah that looks perfect, jitter is constantly 0, no A/V sync messages. No other warnings or errors.

The A/V sync option has no influence whatsoever in that log, and from what i can see, sync should just be perfect.
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Old 17th May 2011, 22:30   #3194  |  Link
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I guessed as much, maybe the file is just bit bad or my mind is playing ticks on me.
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Old 17th May 2011, 22:31   #3195  |  Link
nevcairiel
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If its just the file, it doesn't make sense that toggling the option changes anything
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Old 17th May 2011, 22:38   #3196  |  Link
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lol fine, then it must be me
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Old 17th May 2011, 22:44   #3197  |  Link
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Any issues with live tv files?
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Old 17th May 2011, 23:02   #3198  |  Link
nevcairiel
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For the future, i just added debug logging into a file to LAV Splitter and LAV Audio. Both will dump their log into LAVAudio.txt and LAVSplitter.txt respectively, on your Desktop. Of course only when running debug builds, but no longer required to run it from a debugger or anything like that.

I'll be supplying debug versions of those two dlls with the next release as well then.

PS: The log files will be truncated every launch, so only one run will be shown in there. But at least the files don't grow excessively.
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Old 17th May 2011, 23:51   #3199  |  Link
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Cool, at least I got to play with debugging in VS before you made it nice and easy.

Is there any negative aspect to run the debug builds most of the time?
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Old 18th May 2011, 00:10   #3200  |  Link
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I apologize if this is a known problem but the thread is long and the changes are fast

I have a couple of mkv files with a 768k DTS 1.0 (core only no -HD MA) stream in them (old ~1968-1970 films that originally had mono PCM audio). These DTS audio streams don't decode with LAV Audio on PC with a 2.0 speaker system. I can bitstream it with LAV Audio on a different PC that goes to a receiver with 5.1 configuration. I can decode the DTS 1.0 stream to the 2.0 speakers when I use MPC's internal DTS codec or AC3Filter just fine, but it's a total no-go with LAV. MPC just hangs and never starts playing the file at all. Interestingly the Arcsoft decoder from TMT2 (1.1.0.8) can't handle it either. At least when I try to decode the stream to PCM or wav with eac3to, it throws an error and quits.

So is this just me or is it a bug?

Oh, and stellar job on the filters in general. Incredible effort.

Last edited by glorp; 18th May 2011 at 00:15.
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