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Old 17th November 2017, 21:35   #47241  |  Link
Epedemic
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Originally Posted by khanmein View Post
Adjust the brightness of SDR content on your HDR display: Starting with Build 17040, Windows now lets you adjust how bright SDR content appears when running in HDR mode on the desktop. On an HDR capable system, you will see a slider in the “HDR and advanced color settings” page under Settings > System > Display. This is one of the improvements to HDR image quality that we have planned based on feedback from Insiders.

https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexp...uild-17040-pc/
Interesting. I'm running preview builds on my laptop, but it seems a bit risky to run them on my HTPC, which is supposed to "just work", as the preview builds (obviously) are a bit hit and miss... But great to know they are evolving the HDR capabilities
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Old 17th November 2017, 21:51   #47242  |  Link
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But still, nevcariel, what you write can't be considered a good long term strategy. The free upgrade policy to Win 10 represented a potential money saver for lots of people. To stay with Win 8.1 (which I used and was satisfied with) meant being forced in the future to spend $199 in the future. That's the money you spend for a decent GPU. You can't be too hard with people that did not want to stick with 8.1, in my opinion.
Once you have upgraded to Window 10 on a computer, the license will ALWAYS work on that machine, even if you do a clean reinstall. You simply have to install Windows 10 saying that you don't have a serial number, and once it's installed to activate it. Windows will recognize your PC and will fully activate it.

So once you've done the free upgrade, nothing prevents from your wiping out your Windows 10 install, install Windows 8.1 for now, and re-install Windows 10 at a later stage (for free) whenever HDR support is more stable.

I'm seriously considering doing this on my HTPC. I'm not installing to Fall Creators update, but if Windows forces it on me and HDR doesn't work even with older drivers, I'll definitely go back to win 8.1 (even if on a second SSD with a dual boot).

The main drawback of 8.1 in a mixed gaming/HTPC machine is the loss of DirectX 12, but the main advantage is to get native MCE back.

As video playback is a lot more important to me than gaming, I'll go back to 8.1 is MS forces me to. I've done the free upgrade to Windows 10 on all my PCs knowing that I could go back and forth if needed, provided the hardware doesn't change too significantly (for example a change of two of mainboard/GPU/system drive would probably require a manual activation that might be refused). That's why I upgraded my GPU before reverting to 8.1 if needed, makes it possible to change the hard drive without activation issues).
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Old 18th November 2017, 00:20   #47243  |  Link
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Activation is also now tied to your MS account. If you sign in to your Windows 10 PC, your activation can be used even after a motherboard change. GPU's or system drives have never been tied to MS activation, just the motherboard.

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Old 18th November 2017, 03:07   #47244  |  Link
Manni
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Activation is also now tied to your MS account. If you sign in to your Windows 10 PC, your activation can be used even after a motherboard change. GPU's or system drives have never been tied to MS activation, just the motherboard.
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GPUs and System drives (and even CPU) have ALWAYS been tied to activation, along with MB. You could change any of these (except MB), but if you change any two you have to reactivate (on the phone or automatically if you MS account is linked), and on OEM versions (tied to the MB) reactivation could be denied.

http://www.thewindowsclub.com/window...-configuration

So depends on whether you have an OEM (tied to one motherboard) or a full version of the OS (you can install it on any PC you want but it will only be activated on one at a time). For a full version, unless it has changed in Windows 10, the GPU and system drive are also taken into account.

You don't have to link an MS account by the way. It's only an option since the Anniversary update, but it's not necessary. I use a standard login and the activation still works.

I kept it simple because all this this is fairly off topic. The point is if you have upgraded to Windows 10 you can downgrade to Windows 8.1 and upgrade back to 10 later. That's the only on-topic part.
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Old 18th November 2017, 10:57   #47245  |  Link
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The main drawback of 8.1 in a mixed gaming/HTPC machine is the loss of DirectX 12, but the main advantage is to get native MCE back.
From how I have been reading things in the last few weeks in relation to nvidia, even DX11 is playing games better than DX12 on win10 machines.
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Old 18th November 2017, 11:56   #47246  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Epedemic View Post
Regarding Chroma Upscaling, i left that at the default (Cubic), is that hte least taxing setting or does it make sense to switch to bilinear (or something 3rd)?
Not sure why you asked, when you can do it in less time than it took you to type that and find out yourself..

Make sure the trade quality for performance options are all ticked and then you can see if unticking any from the bottom is feasible.
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Old 18th November 2017, 12:11   #47247  |  Link
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Even though the free update offer "officially" ended, it is still technically possible to upgrade for free using the standard procedures. I would expect this state of affairs to go on pretty much forever - Microsoft cares more about people converging on the latest version than extracting scraps of money from late adopters. It is quite likely that they never intended for the free update to ever stop working and that the "deadline" was just a marketing trick to induce a sense of urgency in the userbase.
I suppose you're referring to the assistive tech upgrade path. That's gonna close at the end of this year: https://www.cnet.com/how-to/microsof...tive-features/
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Old 18th November 2017, 12:37   #47248  |  Link
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From how I have been reading things in the last few weeks in relation to nvidia, even DX11 is playing games better than DX12 on win10 machines.
That mostly depends on the game, but its generally not wrong. NVIDIAs DX11 driver is quite optimized, so the benefit from DX12 is usually small - especially since DX12 optimizations in the games are often not the absolute best yet.
This may change over time however as the big rendering engines get better dealing with DX12.
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Old 18th November 2017, 13:06   #47249  |  Link
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Yep, absolutely true. It depends a lot on the game.
I found a solution for myself how to stick to the Anniversary Update, this was/is really a stable version of Windows 10.
Funny that I'm having a much more hassle free experience on Arch Linux with all the latest stuff than with recent Windows 10 builds. Microsoft just have proven themselves incompetent for "Windows as a service".
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Old 18th November 2017, 13:07   #47250  |  Link
ashlar42
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I'll post just this last time on the subject , because, yes, it's off-topic. Advocating for 8.1 usage after more than two years since Windows 10 release is, in my so very humble opinion, kind of backward looking. As time goes by, the stuff that won't work correctly on 8.1 will only grow but, more importantly, there's a clock ticking for when security updates won't be coming anymore.

As such, I feel that all efforts should be directed toward having stuff work correctly on 10. From a user's point of view this includes bugging companies in order for them to fix existing bugs, and so on and so forth.
Suggesting people keep using 8.1, instead, actually slows down the process.

It would be different if madVR was multiplatform. Windows 10 sucks? Go and install Linux (in whatever distro). That would be ok, because it won't be a suggestion with a date of expiration built in.

Cheers and, it goes without saying, only respect and thanks for madshi and nevcariel, who remain free to suggest whatever the hell they prefer, disregarding completely my personal opinion, which ain't worth nothing (and I'm not being ironic).
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Old 18th November 2017, 13:09   #47251  |  Link
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Linux does not even support HDR at all.
It will happen though.
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Old 18th November 2017, 13:16   #47252  |  Link
Manni
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Originally Posted by Razoola View Post
From how I have been reading things in the last few weeks in relation to nvidia, even DX11 is playing games better than DX12 on win10 machines.
I have no interest re performance, but some games are DirectX 12 exclusive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ctX_12_support. Not that I care that much personally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashlar42 View Post
I'll post just this last time on the subject , because, yes, it's off-topic. Advocating for 8.1 usage after more than two years since Windows 10 release is, in my so very humble opinion, kind of backward looking. As time goes by, the stuff that won't work correctly on 8.1 will only grow but, more importantly, there's a clock ticking for when security updates won't be coming anymore.

As such, I feel that all efforts should be directed toward having stuff work correctly on 10. From a user's point of view this includes bugging companies in order for them to fix existing bugs, and so on and so forth.
Suggesting people keep using 8.1, instead, actually slows down the process.

It would be different if madVR was multiplatform. Windows 10 sucks? Go and install Linux (in whatever distro). That would be ok, because it won't be a suggestion with a date of expiration built in.

Cheers and, it goes without saying, only respect and thanks for madshi and nevcariel, who remain free to suggest whatever the hell they prefer, disregarding completely my personal opinion, which ain't worth nothing (and I'm not being ironic).
You are barking at the wrong tree. Madshi and Nev do all they can to make it work as best as possible on all recent/supported OSes and drivers, within reason.

HDR still works fine with Windows 10 pre Fall Creators Update with nVidia 385.28. That's why I stayed with these personally.

The problem is that MS keeps changing things (because they keep getting their HDR support wrong), and just by the time nVidia catches up they break it again.

When MS and nVidia stop this dance, then we'll get stable support (hopefully). This is why, until they get their HDR support in order, it is an option to go back temporarily to 8.1 if your priority is HTPC use.

Otherwise, use older OS/drivers versions, or complain to MS/nVidia instead of complaining here and taking valuable time from the devs who already do all they can to deal with what MS and GPU manufacturers throw our way.
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Last edited by Manni; 18th November 2017 at 13:34.
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Old 18th November 2017, 13:45   #47253  |  Link
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I suppose you're referring to the assistive tech upgrade path. That's gonna close at the end of this year: https://www.cnet.com/how-to/microsof...tive-features/
No, I'm not referring to that. Even if you don't use assistive tech, you can still install and activate Windows 10, today, with a Windows 7 or 8 key. Nothing changed. And I don't expect it will.
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Old 18th November 2017, 14:36   #47254  |  Link
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Does Madvr downconvert HDR to 8bit and also srgb colorspace when you select "Convert HDR content to SDR"?

when i compare the same hdr content with madvr to my K8500 UHD player i can see that colors are more saturated with madvr but i can also see that the content has the usual 8bit bandings in skies and such.

my tv has 89% of dci p3 colorspace
isnt it possible to set custom colorpoints X and Y for HDR that madvr can convert to instead of the lower srgb colorspace?
that way i can use the full color performance from the tv with HDR.
also leave the 10bit precision alone from the content would be a great idea

Last edited by Patrik G; 18th November 2017 at 14:42.
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Old 18th November 2017, 18:06   #47255  |  Link
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This is probably a stupid question. I know that MadVR isn't so difficult to install, but is there a particular reason why it doesn't have a installer (such as NSIS) that might make it even easier for novices to install/uninstall ?
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Old 18th November 2017, 18:38   #47256  |  Link
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This is probably a stupid question. I know that MadVR isn't so difficult to install, but is there a particular reason why it doesn't have a installer (such as NSIS) that might make it even easier for novices to install/uninstall ?
I expect version 1.0 will include standard Windows install/uninstall .exe files. I agree that many younger users don't even know what a .bat file does.
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Old 18th November 2017, 18:56   #47257  |  Link
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Installed the latest win 10 insider build (17040-171110) and the latest nvida driver 388.31,

My observations so far - yep, HDR borked, but, and this is a big but, the PQ has been given a big bump up (such an improved depth, clarity and colour reproduction - far more movie like). I can only assume the dev work that has gone into this build is to squeeze every ounce of PQ for the new Xbox (basically a Win10 box).

Sure, its a trade off for HDR (i've settled on letting MadVR convert, given the sheer volume of non-hdr movies in my collection vs hdr movies), but, from what I've seen, it's a price I'm personally willing to pay (until if and when they fix hdr).

Just my 2 cents.

K

Last edited by oldpainlesskodi; 21st November 2017 at 06:57.
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Old 18th November 2017, 19:55   #47258  |  Link
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What do you mean by "depth, clarity and colour reproduction"? Please use more precise terms.
Do you mean MS have improved the HDR conversion to SDR? Or the SDR playback in HDR mode?
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Old 19th November 2017, 04:59   #47259  |  Link
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Regarding Dolby Vision, I'm certainly not an expert on these things, but it seems like the enhancement layer might be a form of ratio image. Basically the 12 bit Dolby Vision source divided by the HDR10 version equals the ratio image which has been down scaled to 1920x1080 (probably among other things). It's sort of a clever way of storing higher bit depth information in two lower bit depth images. In order for MadVR to access the 12 bit Dolbly Vision version, the decoder would need to simultaneously decode both layers (HDR10+enhancement) making both available to MadVR, which would need to scale the enhancement later back up to 3840x2160 and multiply it with the HDR10 pixels. Probably other operations would need to be performed on the enhancement layer, bit shifting or something as in float it would have values greater than one which would need to preserved/recovered. Or all this could be completely wrong
I did some research and it looks like I am wrong. It seems that the enhancement layer is not derived through division, but through subtraction. It contains the residuals from subtracting the HDR10 stream from the Dolby Vision signal. The tricky part is that the residuals are processed with a non-linear quantizer. The parameters of the non-linear quantizer are conveyed via metadata, so to reconstruct the Dolby Vision signal, first you need to read a bunch of metadata to derive the inverse quantizer so that you can access the residuals and add them to the HDR10 baselayer
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Old 19th November 2017, 11:22   #47260  |  Link
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I did some research and it looks like I am wrong. It seems that the enhancement layer is not derived through division, but through subtraction. It contains the residuals from subtracting the HDR10 stream from the Dolby Vision signal. The tricky part is that the residuals are processed with a non-linear quantizer. The parameters of the non-linear quantizer are conveyed via metadata, so to reconstruct the Dolby Vision signal, first you need to read a bunch of metadata to derive the inverse quantizer so that you can access the residuals and add them to the HDR10 baselayer
Damn, well lets do that then
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