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Old 21st January 2018, 09:50   #241  |  Link
hajosattila
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So you suggest I should leave it as it is and there is no use for fine tuning? Actually I am quite satisfied with the results as every REMUX is awesome on it.
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Old 21st January 2018, 11:24   #242  |  Link
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A 3DLUT for madVR could be beneficial but you don't want to adjust your white point. I haven't actually seen your gamma results but a 3DLUT is a great way to get a perfect gamma. Only looking at primary and secondary colors and the gray scale is not enough information.

The settings you showed for DisplayCal were good, except I would change the gamma to BT.1886 and the white point to as measured (or native if that is what DisplayCal calls it). Unless your gamma is already good.

Even with all those options set to "as measured" a 3DLUT can be helpful, it won't make a big difference in all scenes but can help a lot in some.

However, if you do a "Color Checker" scan in HFCR and everything is below 2 dE, maybe don't bother with a 3DLUT.
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Old 21st January 2018, 14:57   #243  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hajosattila View Post
Can you help me with DisplayCal's settings? https://imgur.com/a/PRxXz
In my case, is it necessary to use the Interactive Display Adjustment option? I just want to refine my CMS because I've calibrated everything with BT1886 CALMAN software!
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So you suggest I should leave it as it is and there is no use for fine tuning? Actually I am quite satisfied with the results as every REMUX is awesome on it.
Can you also remind us which TV do you have, Attila?
Well, here's what you can do: select a different user preset on your TV and reset everything back to default under it, than you can create a proper 3dlut with DisplayCal and you can easily switch between presets on the TV to see the diff between CMS and 3dlut calibration.

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... except I would change the gamma to BT.1886 ...
Well, I'd rather go for 2.4 gamma if you can select it on your TV as well You can take a look here, why, Attila.

As far as modding the default MadVR preset in DisplayCal, you only have to change:
- the amount of patches on Profiling tab (I used to create around 4000)
- and the above mentioned gamma settings on 3dlut tab

And yes, you have to adjust the white point of your TV!

When it's finished, you have to make sure that the generated 3dlut is properly set in MadVR, then you can go to the verification tab, and set the chosen gamma there as well, and select XXXL video profile.
And you can also make a profile with HCFR as well, as Asmodian said.

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... and I apologize for my weak English!
Your English is fine there's no need for apologizing for it
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Old 21st January 2018, 18:34   #244  |  Link
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And yes, you have to adjust the white point of your TV!
Their white point is already within 0.2 dE! Why would they want to use software to mess with the white point at all? Any change done in software would reduce contrast for nothing.

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Well, I'd rather go for 2.4 gamma if you can select it on your TV as well You can take a look here, why, Attila.
Quote:
for evening/night usage (with just a dim environment light on): 2.4 like gamma with slightly elevated shadows at the lower end of greyscale
Guess what BT.1886 is.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 11:45   #245  |  Link
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However, if you do a "Color Checker" scan in HFCR and everything is below 2 dE, maybe don't bother with a 3DLUT.
As far as I remember the avg. in Color Checker was around 0,9.Including the skin tone, blue sky etc.

Thanks guys!!
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Old 22nd January 2018, 16:23   #246  |  Link
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Their white point is already within 0.2 dE! Why would they want to use software to mess with the white point at all? Any change done in software would reduce contrast for nothing.
Well, then he doesn't have to change it then
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Old 22nd January 2018, 21:39   #247  |  Link
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I notice the closer I get RGB to each other the less difference I see at the end of the calibration when I click preview. Essentially just adjusting those values is what you do on a display not connected to a computer, and can use HCFR. So is there an actual reason to "calibrate" with the software and have it adjust levels if not doing pro color work? I leave the settings on "as measured" anyway.

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Old 25th January 2018, 15:51   #248  |  Link
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So is there an actual reason to "calibrate" with the software and have it adjust levels if not doing pro color work?
Do you mean 3dlut?
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Old 28th January 2018, 03:55   #249  |  Link
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If your white point is already as good as your example I strongly recommend you not calibrate it in software. I also recommend you NEVER calibrate the brightness with software, for any reason.

A 3DLUT can still be quite helpful, and even an ICC profile if your gamma or gray scale need work, but simply set the aspects that are already good to "as measured". The less you adjust in software the better.
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Old 19th April 2018, 14:42   #250  |  Link
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Is it worth creating a 3DLUT for every color space ie Rec.709, SMPTE-C, EBU/PAL?
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Old 20th April 2018, 09:35   #251  |  Link
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I don't think so. I have 2 for rec.709 (night, day), and similarly 2 for hdr->sdr conversion.
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Old 21st July 2018, 08:06   #252  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
If your white point is already as good as your example I strongly recommend you not calibrate it in software.
I use the powers of to resurrect this quote!...

What if the white point is not exact?

On my new laptop, you can't adjust RGB levels. The display by default is really good, 3840x2160 wide gamut IPS. The white point was off quite a bit tho, delta E of ~7. Do I leave it as measured or target 6500k? Targeting a value actually influences decisions made during calibration right?

I tried the Dell Premier Color app. It has a bunch of profiles:
https://i.imgur.com/UYVQaxY.png
https://i.imgur.com/8rA5g0S.png

It seemed to brighten things up a bit, but the actual white level didn't change much. The white point changed very little also. The app has a mini calibration tool that uses the i1 display pro to adjust the profiles based on the specific display. After doing that the delta E was ~0.6, but I'm guessing it's because it actually calibrated something. Dispcal and madTPG methods of disabling existing calibrations don't seem to have any effect on the Dell app. You can have both the Dell app and a separate calibration running at the same time. I calibrated, profiled, and then made a 3d-lut for madVR while the Dell app was on the DCI-P3 setting. The gamut coverages were really bad, and so was the overall picture. I'm not really sure how the app works but I'm probably going to uninstall it in favor of the more manual method.

For madVR calibration, dispcal targets P3 white point coordinates by default, so I'm guessing I should leave it alone. White level and gamut is set to as measured. I made the 3D-LUT using DCI-P3 as the source color space which targets a 2.6 gamma. The Dell app also targets a 2.6 gamma with that profile selected, both for obvious reasons. Maybe I should target 2.6 in the calibration when I remove the app, because the gamma will shift, probably to 2.2.
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Old 21st July 2018, 21:13   #253  |  Link
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When calibrating a modern SDR computer display I would target the BT.709 gamut. It is very important to always set white level to as measured unless you are trying to perfectly match two different displays for some reason.

Calibrating the white point is more nuanced. I would target D65 (~6504K) to go with BT.709 but if your white looks white to you I suggest you not use the normal 3 hardware 1DLUTs of the video card or madVR's 3DLUT to adjust it. However, that dell app sounds like it could be a very good thing, it is likely setting up some hardware LUT in the panel itself; using this to correct the white point is similar to using RGB controls. I would put it on the BT.709 setting though, it sounds like your display has poor coverage of P3.

Then create a BT.709 3DLUT for madVR, targeting the native white point and level. Feel free to use the 3DLUT tool to also create LUTs for the rest of madVR's supported color spaces afterward but do the profiling with the understanding that your display is BT.709. Don't try to squish DCI-P3 into your display's gamut with a calibration.
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Old 19th August 2018, 06:19   #254  |  Link
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If anyone is interested, I calibrated a single RGB LED to a pretty good white Delta E . R, G, and B separately look good, and so does white, but a combination of 2 of them looks pretty off. R and B don't look purple, etc.

Changing the voltage to one leg of the LED by 1 millivolt resulted in a ~1% change in a level in HCFR. It's impressive to me that the i1 can detect such a small change. The limiting factor, if anything, was the precision of my power supply.







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Old 19th August 2018, 20:53   #255  |  Link
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Haha, very nice.

You discovery that purple still doesn't look right demonstrates the major issue with RGB type fake color. Our hardware is now much more accurate than the differences between how we perceive mixtures of three frequencies at different intensities. Every individual will match a particular mix of a particular red, green, and/or blue primary color to a different place on the visible spectrum, and this is discounting things like color blindness.

We are currently using a "standard observer" from a 1931 study that is an average from many individuals. This study has been redone several times over the years and the results are similar, this is why you sometimes have options for other observers, but almost everything is still designed around the 1931 results. Ideally one would do this study on oneself, using the same primary colors as your display, and use the results as a "personal observer" instead of using a standard observer.

Edit:
Also, the camera generating the content has the same issue. It does not record the actual spectrum of light but only three intensities based on the response of the sensor. It is impossible to recover the real frequencies so it will never look the same as it would if you were in the room.

However, because we experiance color in such a relative and imprecise way all this is not in anyway obvious to us unless we start doing very careful comparisons.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 07:48   #256  |  Link
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I had a chance to play with a new Alienware laptop, and noticed similar things on the LEDs you can control on it. All the colors look nice, but white doesn't really look white. I guess it really does depend on the hardware used. I wanted to try some higher quality LEDs to see if they perform better.

Anyway, for my XPS 9570 laptop, there is an option for "Color Accuracy" in the Intel graphics control panel that is set to on by default. I turned it off and the display's true potential was released

The colors, specifically red, which looks a bit orangish now, are really saturated, but personally I don't think they're "over-saturated", even though I guess technically they are. It looks much better than whatever gpu altering things "color accuracy" was doing.

You were correct about the Dell App potentially being a good thing. It essentially does modify hardware LUTs as no software affects it. There are many modes for it:
1) Clean install of windows (app not present anymore). Delta E of 3.2, white point around 6750-6800k. Massive color gamut.
2) App installed and reset to factory settings (gives greenish tint and delta E shoots up to ~8).
3) When preparing to calibrate with the i1 but not actually pressing the button. Can even exit the program at this point and it keeps the settings. Delta E now down to ~3.2. Now that I think of it, it's probably the same as just disabling the app all together.
4) Actually calibrating the built-in profiles with the i1. This is sometimes random I think, but generally gives excellent results. Sometimes Delta E of .8, other times .4, and if you get lucky 0.0 or 0.1. They really should increase the amount of patches it reads as what they've implemented has a lot of potential. It basically, as you mentioned, adjusts the RGB levels for you. Sometimes down to exactly 6501k and 2.20 gamma.

Right now, I am wondering which mode to use. Without the Dell app the gamut volume is crazy, and the coverage is almost 100% on both sRGB and Adobe RGB. DCI-P3 coverage stays around the same value in any of the cases. The volume changes by ~3%. The Dell App has profiles you can select but I'm fairly sure it only adjusts the gamma. It's kind of funny because the DCI-P3 profile actually shifts the picture of the CIE diagram from Adobe RGB primaries to DCI-P3, but the coverage measured with displaycal stays the same. I don't think you can change the actual primaries of your display without severely altering everything.

Most seem to recommend prioritizing white level and gamma over gamut coverage. So I guess just calibrating with the dell app and profiling with displaycal and creating 3D LUTs is the best choice. I don't think there is any need to calibrate, as everything is spot on after running the calibration in the app. I've tried it once and it made no difference to what I can see. The white level and gamma are a bit off without it, and the diagram has squiggly curves near the primaries. If using the app, it is sharp.

Is ~93% coverage enough to try and watch UHD blurays with? The display has more gamut volume than both Adobe RGB and DCI-P3 but the primaries are obviously Adobe RGB.

All the pictures are with no app installed:

Diagrams compared to display
sRGB: https://i.imgur.com/FRR63g6.png
Adobe RGB: https://i.imgur.com/D5Fse6q.png
DCI-P3: https://i.imgur.com/12oj040.png

Gamut Coverage and Volume (ran with 425 auto-optimized patches): https://i.imgur.com/QXpzFUT.jpg

White level and Gamma: https://i.imgur.com/m7vQFrM.jpg
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Old 23rd August 2018, 08:25   #257  |  Link
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Great to hear you got good results updating the hardware 3DLUT with the i1.

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I don't think you can change the actual primaries of your display without severely altering everything.
It is entirely dependent on the backlight. You can only reduce saturation after the light has been created.

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Most seem to recommend prioritizing white level and gamma over gamut coverage. So I guess just calibrating with the dell app and profiling with displaycal and creating 3D LUTs is the best choice.
I agree, good advice.

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I don't think there is any need to calibrate, as everything is spot on after running the calibration in the app.
Yes, do not run a software calibration if you already have a hardware 3DLUT you can update.

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Is ~93% coverage enough to try and watch UHD blurays with? The display has more gamut volume than both Adobe RGB and DCI-P3 but the primaries are obviously Adobe RGB.
Not without a 3DLUT for madVR, but it is fine if you do have a 3DLUT.

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All the pictures are with no app installed:
Too bright!

But that is a great Adobe RGB gamut. It is too bad Adobe RGB is out of date now. It was designed for matching printers for professional publishing (CYMK). There is a use for it still but it is not a great "wide gamut" for general consumers.
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Old 6th September 2018, 07:54   #258  |  Link
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Great to hear you got good results updating the hardware 3DLUT with the i1.

Yes, do not run a software calibration if you already have a hardware 3DLUT you can update.
Well, it was working on my previous windows install, but I'm not getting good results this time. The calibration through the Dell App is essentially doing nothing now. Same measurements before and after.

The "default" state of the display isn't too off, about 2.2 dE. I'm guessing this is where a software calibration would actually help, due to the fact that it's not too off that it would destroy the color. I calibrated (high speed) to 6500k and 2.2 gamma, and the gamut coverages and volumes are the same as with the app, but the plot has the rounded edges near the primaries. Why is that?

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Not without a 3DLUT for madVR, but it is fine if you do have a 3DLUT.
I created a 3D LUT from the calibration and profile with source space of DCI-P3 and the entire UHD bluray is purple . UHD bluray colorspace is actually BT.2020 correct? I noticed madVR converts this to DCI-P3 with the default settings as full coverage of BT.2020 is hard to come by on a consumer display. With BT.2020 as the source for the 3D LUT, the colors look good. What should the tone curve be? The calibration is done at 2.2.

With "disable calibration controls" in madVR the colors look over saturated. With "this display is calibrated to BT.2020" the colors look washed out. I am guessing this is because my display's volume is ~18% larger than DCI-P3 but smaller than BT.2020. If I set to calibrated to DCI-P3 then it looks decent. But my display coverage is 100% adobe RGB coverage not 100% DCI-P3, so it doesn't look optimal. The 3D LUT looks the best and the most accurate.

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Too bright!
With a laptop moving from place to place, the ambient light brightness and temperature varies greatly. I guess 120 cd/m^2 would be good, but it's too dim during the day. Going for the average brightness I use can also work as the further you drift from the brightness it was calibrated at the worse it looks.

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But that is a great Adobe RGB gamut. It is too bad Adobe RGB is out of date now. It was designed for matching printers for professional publishing (CYMK). There is a use for it still but it is not a great "wide gamut" for general consumers.
Adobe RGB is actually slightly bigger than DCI-P3 correct? So there's some benefit. DSLRs can output to the Adobe RGB color space as well.
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Old 6th September 2018, 17:04   #259  |  Link
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adobe RGB is mostly using bigger green. well is was created by typo...
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Old 6th September 2018, 19:56   #260  |  Link
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I calibrated (high speed) to 6500k and 2.2 gamma, and the gamut coverages and volumes are the same as with the app, but the plot has the rounded edges near the primaries. Why is that?
Probably because it is trying to adjust the color near the primaries. Gamut coverage and volume is controlled by your primaries, no GPU 1DLUT calibration is going to change it, that takes a 3DLUT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arm3nian View Post
I created a 3D LUT from the calibration and profile with source space of DCI-P3 and the entire UHD bluray is purple . UHD bluray colorspace is actually BT.2020 correct? I noticed madVR converts this to DCI-P3 with the default settings as full coverage of BT.2020 is hard to come by on a consumer display.
Yes, I use BT.2020 3DLUTs too, DCI-P3 LUTs don't seem to work correctly a lot of the time and UHD is stored on the disc as BT.2020.

A 3DLUT is the only option to get good color for video on your display since no consumer video is Adobe RGB and madVR doesn't have a "this display is already calibrated to Adobe RGB" option.

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Originally Posted by Arm3nian View Post
Adobe RGB is actually slightly bigger than DCI-P3 correct? So there's some benefit. DSLRs can output to the Adobe RGB color space as well.
No, DCI-P3 is bigger than Adobe RGB. Adobe RGB has the same blue and red as BT.709/sRGB (less saturated than DCI-P3) but a more saturated green than even DCI-P3.

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