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Old 21st February 2020, 00:07   #58701  |  Link
WuNgUn
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Originally Posted by mclingo View Post
i'm trying smooth motion over the next few days for reasons I wont bore you with, so far its looking pretty good, no frame drops or glitches, what are the disadvantages using this, is there any loss in PQ at all?
Makes films look, err, fake-ish in my opinion... When I have my TV do it, you can sometimes see artifacts in certain, fast motion scenes...
I prefer 24fps look in a movie.
For racing, 50 or 60fps
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Old 21st February 2020, 00:16   #58702  |  Link
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no is not comparable to that...
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Old 21st February 2020, 00:27   #58703  |  Link
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I think you are talking about interpolation there on your TV, SMOOTH MOTION is different I think, you dont get the soap opera affect with that.
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Old 21st February 2020, 01:14   #58704  |  Link
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Originally Posted by mclingo View Post
is there much to gain PQ wise in 113?
from madshi:
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- Dynamic shadow boost feature is now evaluated after HSTM, not before.
- Scene change detection metric logic modified slightly.
- Improved rendering speed when there are a lot of rendering steps (should be especially helpful for NGU). Please note that the measured average rendering times in the OSD will not change. However, you should now be able to get nearer to the theoretically max possible rendering times without getting frame drops.
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I agree with this assertion.
lmao OK I get it. Enjoy your quest for perfection while the rest of the world enjoys content with the hardware and in the environment they can afford and manufacturers strive on making their experience better.
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You misunderstand what I'm talking about, I'm talking about the workflow being BLIND.
That makes no sense. It's not blind when the display knows several variables (its own max brightness and black level, the content, and the viewing environment) and only adapts the rendering depending on those. Once again, there's a range between rubbish and perfect and this range is what manufacturers are investing in, even if you feel this doesn't concern you.
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BT1886 being shit is the assertion of color professionals. Even pro color house light illusion recommends against it.
It was designed by the industry itself. Reading about BT.1886 on AVS Forum, many professionals have criticized certain calibrating solutions developers because they just can't get it right and have decided that it's bad because of it.
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The problem is, it looks bad, and almost always heavily distorts the creator's intent.
It looks better when using a display with raised blacks and/or in a suboptimal viewing environment like a bright room, all while looking as good as gamma 2.4 on a display with perfect black and a dark viewing environment. Which was the exact goal it was designed for. Also, it cannot distort the creator's intent if the creator's using it. The industry doesn't care for your disdain for anything other than perfect hardware in ideal environment.
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Last edited by el Filou; 21st February 2020 at 01:23.
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Old 21st February 2020, 01:29   #58705  |  Link
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Where is the "like" button when you need it...
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Old 21st February 2020, 04:21   #58706  |  Link
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What I can't figure out at the moment is shadow recovery.

I can't seem to find a scene where it makes a huge difference.

@ Filou

The process is very much blind. The majority of tvs come with really bonkers out of the box performance.

Even basic things like saturation targets are at the wrong angle.

And because consumer displays drift really quickly you can not assume it can hold a D65 white point for very long, or if it even came with one to begin with.

Very often they'll ship with movie mode in 6300 or even 7000+ in color temperature.

I've seen tvs ship with 5500k in movie mode.

They don't adhere to standards, because the Public iis ignorant.
THe public is ignorant because they don't have colorimeters.

Colorimeters make the world go round. it elevates consumer taste, and that will push Manufacturers to innovate, and not just sell people gimmicks.
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Old 21st February 2020, 11:41   #58707  |  Link
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
They don't adhere to standards, because the Public iis ignorant.
THe public is ignorant because they don't have colorimeters.

Colorimeters make the world go round. it elevates consumer taste, and that will push Manufacturers to innovate, and not just sell people gimmicks.
Before claiming anyone's ignorance, you might want to check the price of a somewhat-decent colorimeter - which is usually upwards of $250. Few people are willing to drop that much on some vague promise of better PQ.
Colorimeters need to drop 9/10th their price before anyone can even hope for them to become widely used, and I don't think that's going to happen any time soon. Wishful thinking and all.
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Old 21st February 2020, 12:20   #58708  |  Link
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I'm not really understand what madshi did with his "madVRhdrMeasure", is it only a HDR thing or a real new updated version of madVR with bugfixes, tweaks, speedups etc.? I didn't need all the HDR stuff.

Version 0.92.17 is now old, is madVRhdrMeasure113 the newer version of madVR? It's kinda sad that there was no development for madVR anymore or in my opinion it maybe goes the "wrong" direction. I don't wanna be offensive to madshi or someone, I just wanna understand it.
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Old 21st February 2020, 12:33   #58709  |  Link
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as always he takes a topic like a scaling algorithm then works on that for 1-36 months without touching "anything" else.

currently he is working on HDR and HDR -> SDR conversation.
if you don't care about that topic so be it not everyone cared about error diffusion too that's normal but still a feature he want to add.
there are 113 major test builds i'm ignoring sub builds here this was a ton of work.
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Old 21st February 2020, 13:04   #58710  |  Link
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Not to mention that he has simultaneously been working on the envy product launch which is now in the hands of Beta testers. The envy shares the same code base as madvr. Given that he's working to finalize that product release he's very focused at the moment. But dynamic tone mapping is far from done as he continues to improve it.

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Old 21st February 2020, 13:23   #58711  |  Link
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For me, as I watch a lot of 720/1080p on a 4k display, 113 has improved the upscaling significantly. And I think my gtx1060 can hold for longer time.
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Old 21st February 2020, 13:58   #58712  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Tobiwan View Post
I'm not really understand what madshi did with his "madVRhdrMeasure", is it only a HDR thing or a real new updated version of madVR with bugfixes, tweaks, speedups etc.? I didn't need all the HDR stuff.

Version 0.92.17 is now old, is madVRhdrMeasure113 the newer version of madVR? It's kinda sad that there was no development for madVR anymore or in my opinion it maybe goes the "wrong" direction. I don't wanna be offensive to madshi or someone, I just wanna understand it.
One way to look at it could be: where's the superior Windows option? If the latest madVR release prior to all the development gone into HDR tonemapping and Envy is still superior to all other available options, what's the problem?

I mean, considering that it's all free there should not be a problem ever with this product's development roadmap but, considering that I don't see anything superior being made available... I'm glad that I can still use it, for free.
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Old 21st February 2020, 14:27   #58713  |  Link
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I'm glad that I can still use it, for free.
madVR was always a great software and I would pay for it to use and support. Envy is now one year announced and still not available for public.

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as always he takes a topic like a scaling algorithm then works on that for 1-36 months without touching "anything" else.
I don't get why he does focus one thing for years. I'm only a PC user and Windows change so much stuff, player changes, driver changes, features broke, new features are possible... for a TV user its not a big deal to work with stable but old software because it does nothing change.

I'm will testing now madVRhdrMeasure if it makes a difference for my system. Thanks nsnhd.
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Old 21st February 2020, 14:39   #58714  |  Link
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because he may like it(if you take the time to pick a around a bit is obvious why). it's free software nothing for us to bother with.
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Old 21st February 2020, 15:33   #58715  |  Link
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I don't get why he does focus one thing for years.
It's easy: business = money

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113 has improved the upscaling significantly.
Really? What do you reckon by how much?
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Old 21st February 2020, 15:41   #58716  |  Link
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the scaling isn't better it's cheaper.
the trick was (don't quote me on that) to do the scaling in one shader not in "alot" the transfer from one shader to another seem to cost quite some processing power.
the problem is the rendertimes are not correct anymore 23p may work with 42 ms don't think about it just take it.
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Old 21st February 2020, 15:48   #58717  |  Link
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I tested the 113 beta, and for me it increased the rendering times, with the last official build 0.92.17 the render times are lower.
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Old 21st February 2020, 15:55   #58718  |  Link
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He claims the render times are more accurate in 113 than they were in the past and that even though they've "increased" they were in reality always that high. At least that's what madshi said on the avs thread.
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Old 21st February 2020, 15:59   #58719  |  Link
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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
He claims the render times are more accurate in 113 than they were in the past and that even though they've "increased" they were in reality always that high. At least that's what madshi said on the avs thread.
Well, I hope it is true.
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Old 21st February 2020, 16:06   #58720  |  Link
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As always you need to check GPU clock and % usage to compare efficiency, not just rendering times in the OSD.

I assume a lot of madshi's time is taken up by the Envy and it's fine, he has a product to sell. HDR tone mapping is the rage right now like SD upscale was 10 years ago, and it needs to be as good as possible for the Envy to show a big advantage in the market. A lot of madVR's quality on the PC comes from doing 'foundation' steps in higher quality than the basic DXVA pipeline, but when compared to standalone pro video processors it needs to advertise killer features. NGU is one but other manufacturers have started to do machine learning upscale too (smooth motion is another but I'm not sure how many customers see it as a killer feature); its HDR tone mapping otoh seems to be a notch or two above everything else - especially with high-end projectors where a lot of the money is - and you need dev time to reach such a quality.
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