Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Hardware & Software > Software players

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11th July 2011, 19:14   #1  |  Link
ar-jar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Vreta kloster, Sweden
Posts: 332
Smooth video with flash?

Hi, has anybody succeeded in playing smooth video with flash? And I mean really smooth, no pan judder, no jerkiness. I play content from the Swedish national TV, I've tried the movies on demand service Voddler, I've played videos from some other services and there is always this spasticity. It happens on various computers with both XP and W7, particularly in fullscreen. I have a 100 mb/s connection and I never get interrupts so it can't be because of starving. I would expect the playback to be as smooth as a regular media player, i.e. with only the occasional skip or duplicated frame when the rates match well. Thanks and cheers! -Arto
ar-jar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th July 2011, 20:01   #2  |  Link
CruNcher
Registered User
 
CruNcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 4,949
The Flash Video Player is nothing different (though its overall more complex as their is the Browser layer also) then a Media Player with a Specific API running inside the Browser context so their are many possibilities under Windows for problems or frame drops
It's not possible to fix those from outside it can be anything on your PC running impacting it it can be for example your Browser good example would be having many tabs open with different javascripts running in a non process separated way or even a bug inside its rendering Engine
1st thing i would advice to test though is GPU playback so disable it and see how the Mainconcept Decoder Core copes with it, Gpu Playback can be problematic it's its own resort of possible failures and problems (here especially the GFX driver and it's API comes into play, but also Hardware things it needs a very optimized System and the higher the resolution the more Powerfull it needs to be, because of the whole Copy Back from the GPU Memory) And then their is the Browsers Rendering Engine that creates another Potential problem (how are the frames getting inside the Browser window, as i said previously their maybe was a bug somewhere introduced by a new Version ect "happens a lot for example in the firefox developments it's a continuously progress to improve)

I give you a nice example even activating on Youtube the Video Information FPS display (actionscript) is a bad thing and can cause frame drops itself depending on the system
And then all the different Flash Players and their Interactivity layers can have bugs as well or be bad or inefficient coded
It doesn't need to be interrupts it can just be a CPU cycle @ the wrong time
It can be Power Saving features, the list goes on and on :P

1 Thing for sure if your life depends on all Frames being displayed @ all times no matter what happens on your system Windows is not the right solution for you

And as i said this is already a kind of art to handle in a Standalone Player it's much more complex in a Browser also because you have much more 3rd parties involved (in the case of Flash Video)

Here are some basic tips:

-Disable Power saving (anything that has todo with dynamic frequency switching)
-Try to run as less 3rd party code as possible in the Background (sometimes Micrsofts code is already enough remember Vista pre SP1 especially try to avoid Hardware pooling applications like AIDA,Afterburner, Process Explorer, Process Hacker,GPU-Z,CPU-Z and all the Hwmonitor oh yes especialy try to avoid running ASUS PC Suite or any Vendor Hardware tools ) much easier if possible try to run the same scenario that gives you problems on a complete clean installation
-Try to avoid running applications with to harsh timers (bellow 500 ms is never good try to stay 1sec)
-Give the Browser the Highest Priority (though if you switch to Fullscreen Flash Player handles that itself)
-Try different Browser with just 1 tab and try to compare without any Debug views
__________________
all my compares are riddles so please try to decipher them yourselves :)

It is about Time

Join the Revolution NOW before it is to Late !

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=168004

Last edited by CruNcher; 11th July 2011 at 20:39.
CruNcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th July 2011, 07:36   #3  |  Link
ar-jar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Vreta kloster, Sweden
Posts: 332
Thanks for the tips. Basically I think a Flash player should do no worse than a standalone player which exhibits the occasional glitch. I've got CPU-cycles and Internet bandwidth to spare so I don't think it can be that. I basically fail to see what could not be solved with some extra buffering and a directx-renderer that is at least as "vsync-savvy" as the basic MPC renderers. I now see that there are open source versions of the Flash plugin. I'll try them out and see what happens. -A
ar-jar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th July 2011, 07:49   #4  |  Link
Hera
.NET Web App Dev
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 291
Wfm...
__________________
Intel i7 5820k / 16 GB DDR4 / NV 970 / 4K ASUS
Windows 8.1
Hera is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th July 2011, 15:18   #5  |  Link
leeperry
Kid for Today
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,475
FLV is dead smooth in PotPlayer when using Reclock in a compatible refresh rate + madVR...but the official web player is junk.
leeperry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th July 2011, 17:59   #6  |  Link
Superb
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 364
The official Flash Player (the latest version, obviously) even shows tearing here.
Superb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th July 2011, 18:25   #7  |  Link
roozhou
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superb View Post
The official Flash Player (the latest version, obviously) even shows tearing here.
I have tearing too. Flash Player 8 (without D3D) has no tearing.
roozhou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th July 2011, 00:04   #8  |  Link
JanWillem32
Registered User
 
JanWillem32's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,083
I've just tested Flash 10.3, glad to see that it features a stats screen. It doesn't show that many statistics, but at least it correctly shows when the DXVA and hardware video acceleration modes are activated.
I've tested the software decoding, DXVA decoding, software rendering and hardware rendering modes.
As an educated guess, they've implemented a video renderer with the bare minimum required to do a D3D presentation with. I think they just wanted some video acceleration and DXVA done quickly. The only internal feature of the renderer seems to be a bilinear filter (by a StretchRect command probably, that also stretches out all rendered fonts).
It surprises me that companies that make commercial products that use DirectX or OpenGL rendering won't even hire one experienced programmer. There are plenty of DirectX and OpenGL specialists available that have more skill and experience than me. Those programmers would never write a renderer that would give that typical type of tearing in the middle of a presentation window. (It's usually caused by a lack of double or triple buffering in windowed mode, when passing output frames to the Windows GUI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_buffering . Combine that with a VSync method, and it's usually a lot better.)
I don't want to sound too negative. The programming team for this program is probably just very new at this, as the previous versions didn't include DXVA and hardware video acceleration modes.
The idea of an open source plugin for flash content also sounds good to me, does anyone know of any?
__________________
development folder, containing MPC-HC experimental tester builds, pixel shaders and more: http://www.mediafire.com/?xwsoo403c53hv
JanWillem32 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th July 2011, 21:09   #9  |  Link
CruNcher
Registered User
 
CruNcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 4,949
Quote:
Originally Posted by JanWillem32 View Post
I've just tested Flash 10.3, glad to see that it features a stats screen. It doesn't show that many statistics, but at least it correctly shows when the DXVA and hardware video acceleration modes are activated.
I've tested the software decoding, DXVA decoding, software rendering and hardware rendering modes.
As an educated guess, they've implemented a video renderer with the bare minimum required to do a D3D presentation with. I think they just wanted some video acceleration and DXVA done quickly. The only internal feature of the renderer seems to be a bilinear filter (by a StretchRect command probably, that also stretches out all rendered fonts).
It surprises me that companies that make commercial products that use DirectX or OpenGL rendering won't even hire one experienced programmer. There are plenty of DirectX and OpenGL specialists available that have more skill and experience than me. Those programmers would never write a renderer that would give that typical type of tearing in the middle of a presentation window. (It's usually caused by a lack of double or triple buffering in windowed mode, when passing output frames to the Windows GUI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_buffering . Combine that with a VSync method, and it's usually a lot better.)
I don't want to sound too negative. The programming team for this program is probably just very new at this, as the previous versions didn't include DXVA and hardware video acceleration modes.
The idea of an open source plugin for flash content also sounds good to me, does anyone know of any?
Though Accelerated Video Rendering should prevent tearing compared to Software Video Rendering @ least it did here though since some time i have a strange problem in 1080p Fullscreen and i dunno where it comes from or what introduced it yet (Nvidia Driver or Flash Player, it happens only in Accelerated Video Rendering Mode i get a Ghosting effect for Progressive Streams (scaled from 1080p to 1920x1080->1280x1024) (720p Fullscreen is ok 1280x720->1280x1024) it looks visually like bad Deinterlacing (scaling goes wrong)
Also it seems switching into both Accellerated Modes on Youtube doesn't work anymore over here i only get currently AVR+SVD but AVR+AVD isn't really working anymore for 720p as well as 1080p it works immediately for 480p and bellow .

It could be also that Adobe implemented some Metric analyzing the CPU usability Win for Fullscreen over the GPU(DSP)+Memory Copy (scaling) drawback (depending on the used GFX hardware Memory Copy Performance and DSP) and tries to avoid Performance issues that way (to many droped frames or slower playback speed in GPU Mode), maybe they really became smart over @ Adobe, though they also have a lot of Feedback on these issues from their Adobe Premiere Mercury Playback Engine which is basically in some form the same in Flash Player

AVR = Accelerated Video Rendering (D3D ?)
SVR = Software Video Rendering (Custom ?)
SVD = Software Video Decoding (Mainconcept)
AVD = Accelerated Video Decoding (NVCUVID,OVD,IMsdk)

So in my situation i can decide now between 1080p with Tearing (SVR+SVD) or Ghosting (AVR+SVD) (though obviously i prefer 720p Fullscreen (SVR+SVD) over both )

Example of 1080p Ghosting (AVR+SVD)



My first thought was Google changed to 1080i now to save bandwith :P and the Deinterlacing goes wrong
__________________
all my compares are riddles so please try to decipher them yourselves :)

It is about Time

Join the Revolution NOW before it is to Late !

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=168004

Last edited by CruNcher; 16th July 2011 at 22:32.
CruNcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th July 2011, 09:06   #10  |  Link
ar-jar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Vreta kloster, Sweden
Posts: 332
Good to hear that it is not only me who's dissatisfied by this plugin that seems to become the de facto standard on the Internet. I think the problem is more than a technical one: it's quantity and availability over quality. There are just too few YouTube watchers who care about either tearing or pan judder. The only thing that might somewhat matter is resolution.

Ideally I'd like to be able to direct the video streams from say YouTube to MPC and use the Sync Renderer to render them. Any idea if that is possible and how to do it?

I've successfully used a prototype of the Sync Renderer to render streams from a TV tuner. No tearing, no glitches (when in the "control display" mode). I'd very much like to do the same with digital video streams. It can't be any different in principle (given enough bandwidth and buffering). -A
ar-jar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th July 2011, 10:01   #11  |  Link
leeperry
Kid for Today
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,475
Quote:
Originally Posted by ar-jar View Post
Good to hear that it is not only me who's dissatisfied by this plugin
Don't count on Adobe to reinvent the wheel in order to make a handful of videophiles happy...when you see the amount of work that went through Reclock and madVR, you can easily understand that this is not going to happen.

Adobe have shareholders and they're well aware that if they let Flash die, HTML5 will kill it. So they need to polish it and always bring new features in order to keep it up to date. Most ppl don't give a damn about smoothness, as they play their videos in 60Hz anyway. The best option for us OCD'ed videophiles is to download the FLV files and play them in our favorite media player environment IMHO.

Adobe paid an obscene lot of cash to Macromedia for Flash, and they most likely won't let it become open source anytime soon...so it'll take some serious reverse engineering if you wanna redirect the streams to a more serious environment.

Last edited by leeperry; 17th July 2011 at 10:15.
leeperry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th July 2011, 12:18   #12  |  Link
CruNcher
Registered User
 
CruNcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 4,949
ehh you could allready do that on Firefox rendering it in VLC for example with full Local Hardware acceleration though the Flash Player has special Progressive buffer improvements and is communicating with the server and so VLCs performance @ a network gap wasn't so good back then when i tested this
DivX HIQ seems better suited (you get full Native DXVA1/2 with it) but if you constantly changing Firefox builds it fast becomes outdated also and they don't updated it to every Alpha or even Beta (also a major drawback it needs to be adjusted for every website and you cant do it yourself but need to tell DivX Inc. to make it work with your favorite Porn Streaming site )

Though both of these have a major drawback and their wont be ever a 3rd party solution for this i guess and that's the missing Interactivity Layer (no adds no interactivity of any kind, just pure video playback) of Flash which is also hardly doable for XP for example in a full DXVA environment then it would be for Vista/7 :P

Though in reality VideoPhiles don't need this pseudo interactivity @ all which is lets be true mostly used for Advertising anyways ok Youtubes Interactive Video link hotspots clicking is nice and losing it hurts a little for some stuff (but in case of Youtube and many others it isn't even Flash implemented directly but Javascript driven anyways being rendered on the StageVideo called Player Interface layer, to not slowdown the background Video Playback)

But as Leeperry said nothing which couldn't be done with HTML5 & Javascript and is even worked on already including a Standardized Subtitle system :P

I wonder how long it will take before some clever guys will use the combination of HTML5 and Vista/7 to plaster the desktop full with Advertising hehe
__________________
all my compares are riddles so please try to decipher them yourselves :)

It is about Time

Join the Revolution NOW before it is to Late !

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=168004

Last edited by CruNcher; 17th July 2011 at 12:46.
CruNcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th July 2011, 08:56   #13  |  Link
ar-jar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Vreta kloster, Sweden
Posts: 332
Thanks JanWillem for pointing out the stats display. It says I have always more than 20 s of video buffered which should leave plenty of time to do a decent rendering job to minimize judder and tearing. My conclusion is therefore that no attempt is made to do so in the Flash player. I guess the Firefox extension DownloadHelper is a workaround. Unfortunately it does not work for all sites, in particular not the Swedish state television site. -A
ar-jar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th July 2011, 11:26   #14  |  Link
petran79
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 84
there is also FlashVideoReplacer. Play Youtube videos with any player you like

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/fir...videoreplacer/

On Ubuntu, Flash 11 had issues with tearing and frame drops.

Flash 10.3 had the same issues but after I enable hardware acceleration in the adobe.cfg file (not the Override GPU command), Youtube videos play smooth, showing both hardware decoding and hardware rendering. Flash 11 does not enable that option even with a modified adobe.cfg

On Windows is there a way to enable that option?
petran79 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th July 2011, 11:56   #15  |  Link
leeperry
Kid for Today
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,475
Quote:
Originally Posted by petran79 View Post
there is also FlashVideoReplacer. Play Youtube videos with any player you like

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/fir...videoreplacer/

On Ubuntu, Flash 11 had issues with tearing and frame drops.

Flash 10.3 had the same issues but after I enable hardware acceleration in the adobe.cfg file (not the Override GPU command), Youtube videos play smooth, showing both hardware decoding and hardware rendering. Flash 11 does not enable that option even with a modified adobe.cfg

On Windows is there a way to enable that option?
interesting! coz since I updated to the latest nvidia drivers on XPSP3, Flash 10 randomly freezes my system or gives BSOD's: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...q=flash+watchd

Flash is just a major annoyance, and the known fix to my problem is to disable hardware acceleration..but then it becomes a tearing feast
leeperry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th July 2011, 12:00   #16  |  Link
ar-jar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Vreta kloster, Sweden
Posts: 332
Thanks for the tips. I already tried the replacer. Works fine with YouTube. The thing is that none of the above plug-ins work for the site that I watch most often which is the Swedish public service TV. I don't believe I have performance issues, I've got CPU cycles and Internet bandwidth to spare. I think I'm talking about a design issue in Flash. But I'll see if the .cfg options make any difference. -A
ar-jar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th July 2011, 12:46   #17  |  Link
smok3
brontosaurusrex
 
smok3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,395
ar-jar: there is very slim chance that any replacer would actually replace all the functionality that flash has, including/especially all types of streaming, so this is kick in the dark at the best.
__________________
certain other member
smok3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th July 2011, 09:05   #18  |  Link
CruNcher
Registered User
 
CruNcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 4,949
Could this maybe be the reason for my Flash Player Plugin Ghosting and Acceleration Problems see http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=162021 ?

PS: Its almost perfect now i changed /USERVA=2990 no issues anymore and 0 frame drops with AVR+AVD



Though sometimes (seems to be bitstream dependent need to look deeper into it) i have to seek for AVD to become active
But it's much better already then how it was before (Ghosting) though the padding somehow goes wrong with AVD though same issue without /3GB

these are the 2 streams i test tearing and quality currently with (Flash Player 11)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPhaeMHWTTU <- 30 fps has some nice smooth ken burns tearing and or motion juder becomes fast noticeable it is visible especially in the horizontal pans (biel in bikini leaning against stone for example)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31TNARtut0s <- 24 fps Big Buck Bunny
__________________
all my compares are riddles so please try to decipher them yourselves :)

It is about Time

Join the Revolution NOW before it is to Late !

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=168004

Last edited by CruNcher; 24th July 2011 at 19:44.
CruNcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th August 2011, 16:52   #19  |  Link
CruNcher
Registered User
 
CruNcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 4,949
Good news for everyone like me who hated that AVD mode change problem for 1080p they finaly fixed it in Flash Player 11 Beta 2 http://labs.adobe.com/downloads/flashplayer11.html
it switches now without the need of seeking into Hardware acceleration independent of the current resolution being played back
You can go Fullscreen/Window and Fullscreen again(1080p) it changes accordingly to AVD, geez it took them long to fix this, but at least they fixed it no useless seeking anymore just to enable Hardware playback
__________________
all my compares are riddles so please try to decipher them yourselves :)

It is about Time

Join the Revolution NOW before it is to Late !

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=168004

Last edited by CruNcher; 13th August 2011 at 17:05.
CruNcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd September 2011, 17:51   #20  |  Link
CruNcher
Registered User
 
CruNcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 4,949
I moved now to Win7 64 and i must say wow Aero is just amazing (Intel HD2000)

though i wonder where this difference in Flash Player 64 framerate comes from



hmm or is fraps maybe incorrect in the actuall DWM rendering framerate ?

Or is the DWM always trying to render 60 fps wouldn't it be better then if Adobe would lock the DWM to the actual Video framerate ?

Firefox Direct2D Rendering (Azure) mixed with Adobe Flash Player (Performance test)



Not all Ken Burns are ok but not bad



Hmm i wonder how the quality and Performance would be under Linux Kernel 3

PS: Here are some other notes of Fraps DWM Hooking from DWM Devs

Quote:
FRAPS may cause instability of some 3D benchmarks, DO NOT run benchmarks with FRAPS
3DMark Vantage may crash with FRAPS
HAWX benchmark may suffer from micro-stuttering when FRAPS is on
__________________
all my compares are riddles so please try to decipher them yourselves :)

It is about Time

Join the Revolution NOW before it is to Late !

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=168004

Last edited by CruNcher; 3rd September 2011 at 22:16.
CruNcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 15:47.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.