Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Hardware & Software > Software players

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 19th March 2013, 09:05   #18041  |  Link
rahzel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by truexfan81 View Post
and yet it looks better when forced to 16-235
It does not. Everything 6233638 said is correct.
rahzel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2013, 09:49   #18042  |  Link
nevcairiel
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hamburg/Germany
Posts: 9,818
Quote:
Originally Posted by truexfan81 View Post
and yet it looks better when forced to 16-235
If it does, then your system is either setup to only work with 16-235, or doesn't properly support full-range content.
__________________
LAV Filters - open source ffmpeg based media splitter and decoders
nevcairiel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2013, 11:36   #18043  |  Link
DragonQ
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 930
So when using EVR, it's best to keep everything at 16-235 to avoid the nasty truncation and banding brought about by conversion to 0-255, right? MadVR presumably doesn't have this problem with the higher bit depth used for conversions, so 0-255 makes more sense (matches desktop graphics).
__________________
HTPC Hardware: Intel Celeron G530; nVidia GT 430
HTPC Software: Windows 7; MediaPortal 1.19.0; Kodi DSPlayer 17.6; LAV Filters (DXVA2); MadVR
TV Setup: LG OLED55B7V; Onkyo TX-NR515; Minix U9-H
DragonQ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2013, 14:11   #18044  |  Link
6233638
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,019
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonQ View Post
So when using EVR, it's best to keep everything at 16-235 to avoid the nasty truncation and banding brought about by conversion to 0-255, right? MadVR presumably doesn't have this problem with the higher bit depth used for conversions, so 0-255 makes more sense (matches desktop graphics).
I can't speak for EVR, but yes, madVR uses more than enough precision to eliminate any problems with levels expansion from 16-235 to 0-255.
6233638 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2013, 14:31   #18045  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,887
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
Please post examples of content that has meaningful information above 235 if you have them.
it's possible with pc game content i try to make a sample later but i never tryed something like this. normal capture software allways change the input rgb 0-255 to yua 4:2:0 16-235.

but does this even matter i mean madvr will see the stream information and everything will be correct...
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2013, 14:55   #18046  |  Link
6233638
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,019
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
it's possible with pc game content i try to make a sample later but i never tryed something like this. normal capture software allways change the input rgb 0-255 to yua 4:2:0 16-235.

but does this even matter i mean madvr will see the stream information and everything will be correct...
Oh, no need for a sample of that. Game footage will be 0-255, but it will be handled correctly.

What I meant is that in commercial content (e.g. films) there should be no meaningful content (if anything) above 235.
6233638 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2013, 18:12   #18047  |  Link
olli66
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 13
this leads to my next question...desktop better set to rgb or yuv?

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
it's possible with pc game content i try to make a sample later but i never tryed something like this. normal capture software allways change the input rgb 0-255 to yua 4:2:0 16-235.

but does this even matter i mean madvr will see the stream information and everything will be correct...
olli66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2013, 18:37   #18048  |  Link
LigH
German doom9/Gleitz SuMo
 
LigH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Germany, rural Altmark
Posts: 5,941
Will the OSD ever be configurable? It is so huge in MPC-HC.
__________________

New German Gleitz board
MediaFire: x264 | x265 | VPx | AOM | Xvid
LigH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2013, 18:54   #18049  |  Link
dansrfe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,212
The OSD is pretty small if the resolution of your desktop and MPC-HC is of reasonable size relative to the resolution of monitors today.
dansrfe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2013, 19:02   #18050  |  Link
LigH
German doom9/Gleitz SuMo
 
LigH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Germany, rural Altmark
Posts: 5,941
But if I start a CIF resolution video, already the filename hardly fits in the window, as long as I don't maximize the window.
__________________

New German Gleitz board
MediaFire: x264 | x265 | VPx | AOM | Xvid
LigH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2013, 19:15   #18051  |  Link
dansrfe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,212
Quote:
Originally Posted by LigH View Post
But if I start a CIF resolution video, already the filename hardly fits in the window, as long as I don't maximize the window.
Yeah, I agree with small resolutions it would be nice if madshi implemented a scaling range for the OSD. Somewhere between 75% - 100% I suppose. But then the text would be difficult to read on the OSD so I'm not sure how that would work out.
dansrfe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2013, 21:19   #18052  |  Link
digitech
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
Oh, no need for a sample of that. Game footage will be 0-255, but it will be handled correctly.

What I meant is that in commercial content (e.g. films) there should be no meaningful content (if anything) above 235.
I have an nvidia Ion HTPC and a Hitachi L42A403 that as far as i know it doesn't support full range (0-255), in nvidia control panel theres an option called video configuration and then i can choose 0-255, do you recommend to set it to full range and madvr the same? even if my display doesn't support 0-255, maybe i have to force 0-255 with the .exe included in madvr, in Lav video settings do i have to set it to 0-255 too? I'm all mixed up, thanks all for your help.
digitech is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2013, 21:53   #18053  |  Link
dansrfe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,212
Set everything in your playback chain to 0-255 and use the included madNvLevelsTweaker.exe tool to force 0-255 if you're using nvidia drivers. Playback chain includes drivers, madVR, receiver, tv and anything else in-between.

Last edited by dansrfe; 19th March 2013 at 22:00.
dansrfe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2013, 23:23   #18054  |  Link
hdboy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by dansrfe View Post
Set everything in your playback chain to 0-255 and use the included madNvLevelsTweaker.exe tool to force 0-255 if you're using nvidia drivers. Playback chain includes drivers, madVR, receiver, tv and anything else in-between.
I have nvidia + mpc-hc + lav video decoder + madvr

My Samsung TV has HDMI level set to Normal (0-255), madNvLevelsTweaker used to force PC levels, nvidia control panel set to rgb output and full range 0-255, madvr output set to PC levels (0-255).

Now, should I set lav video decoder to do rgb->yuv conversion to PC levels, or 'untouched (same as input)'. I select 'untouched'; I figure let madvr handle it. is this correct?
__________________
Win 7 x64, AMD Phenom II X6 1075T, nvidia 430GT, mpc-be x86
hdboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2013, 23:56   #18055  |  Link
corporalgator
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 59
If we should set everything to 0-255, then why did madshi specifically recommend that I set desktop to 0-255 and madvr/TV to 16-235? We even both have Panasonic Plasmas.
corporalgator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2013, 00:19   #18056  |  Link
digitech
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by dansrfe View Post
Set everything in your playback chain to 0-255 and use the included madNvLevelsTweaker.exe tool to force 0-255 if you're using nvidia drivers. Playback chain includes drivers, madVR, receiver, tv and anything else in-between.
Thanks dansfre but my TV doesn't have a 0-255 option, so in my particular case i may ask, what's the real benefit in having anything at 0-255?
digitech is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2013, 01:57   #18057  |  Link
dansrfe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,212
Quote:
Originally Posted by hdboy View Post
I have nvidia + mpc-hc + lav video decoder + madvr

My Samsung TV has HDMI level set to Normal (0-255), madNvLevelsTweaker used to force PC levels, nvidia control panel set to rgb output and full range 0-255, madvr output set to PC levels (0-255).

Now, should I set lav video decoder to do rgb->yuv conversion to PC levels, or 'untouched (same as input)'. I select 'untouched'; I figure let madvr handle it. is this correct?
Yep, that's correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by digitech View Post
Thanks dansfre but my TV doesn't have a 0-255 option, so in my particular case i may ask, what's the real benefit in having anything at 0-255?
0-255 keeps consistency with the range of my desktop and as madshi has previously said, it provides a visually better dynamic range, however I suppose that's something that you would have to see for yourself if you haven't seen a 0-255 playback chain before.

Last edited by dansrfe; 20th March 2013 at 02:06.
dansrfe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2013, 03:01   #18058  |  Link
Dodgexander
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 157
There's no definitive answer. Set 0-255 on all.

Limited is only there for older displays to ensure you don't spread sources to full but can only see limited.(e.g. washed out picture)

If your worried about your display or receiver only displaying limited then use a test pattern.

Each situation is different since everyone's setup differs. There's no point saying do this because that's what I did. Test patterns don't lie.

Sent from my Blade S using Tapatalk 2
Dodgexander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2013, 04:26   #18059  |  Link
welp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodgexander View Post
There's no definitive answer. Set 0-255 on all.

Limited is only there for older displays to ensure you don't spread sources to full but can only see limited.(e.g. washed out picture)

If your worried about your display or receiver only displaying limited then use a test pattern.

Each situation is different since everyone's setup differs. There's no point saying do this because that's what I did. Test patterns don't lie.

This is what I thought. I use GCD as one of my tools to calibrate my htpc, namely the btb/wtw patterns. There's a lot of conflicting info out there so I need a little clarification. When people use these patterns and set their dark levels, color ranges etc. in the end what's the most important thing to achieve? Should I make sure my reference white and black are exactly right or is it more important to make sure I'm getting full range on my videos/and or desktop.

My htpc is connected via hdmi to my avr/hdtv. I've got a nvidia gpu and when forcing full range and setting everything to pc levels I'm not able to use these btb patterns. I can see one bar with my brightness cranked and that's it. I calibrated on both a ps3 and my htpc and can make my results match so I know what my brightness needs to be set at. But like I said while in mpc-hc I need to know what to look for in these test patterns.


If anyone wants to check out the GCD patterns here's the link
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1406352/gc...libration-disk
welp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2013, 08:21   #18060  |  Link
nevcairiel
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hamburg/Germany
Posts: 9,818
Quote:
Originally Posted by corporalgator View Post
If we should set everything to 0-255, then why did madshi specifically recommend that I set desktop to 0-255 and madvr/TV to 16-235? We even both have Panasonic Plasmas.
That would be the proper setup if your TV does not support full-range RGB, and requires limited. But if it supports full-range, it should be used, imho.
__________________
LAV Filters - open source ffmpeg based media splitter and decoders

Last edited by nevcairiel; 20th March 2013 at 08:29. Reason: typos
nevcairiel is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 15:22.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.