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Old 8th February 2016, 19:19   #35941  |  Link
aufkrawall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Hmmm... Downscaling this one only slightly looks much nearer to the original with LL for me. With GL the fonts become much too dark/bold.
Yep, see my edit with SSIM.
The reason why I found 1.6 better for bicubic 150 might be that it's much blurrier than SSIM in this case.
With bicubic sharpness 50 aka C-R, the fonts become quite "outwashed" with LL.
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Old 8th February 2016, 19:28   #35942  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Why are you so sure that the OSD is incorrect? Is it just a guess or do you have concrete evidence?
I'm pretty sure because:
  1. 24 Hz is selected for this display in Windows.
  2. ReClock reports 24 Hz and is green, not yellow as in case when the display is 60 Hz and the currently played video is 23.976 fps.
  3. All madVR versions up to 0.90.3 reports 24 Hz.
What is more, the bug is unstable: sometimes (~1 time of 10) when I drop the player window with the video paused to the secondary display it goes black for a sec, just like the old versions do, and then OSD displays the correct (~24 Hz) refresh rate (I succeeded to log this case, too).
Logs

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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Does the refresh rate in the OSD still fluctuate a bit after it shows the "wrong" refresh rate?
Yes it does.

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The log should then be on your desktop.
I suppose that the batch file would better inform an user about it.
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Old 8th February 2016, 20:24   #35943  |  Link
madshi
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Does this one fix the problem, GCRaistlin?

http://madshi.net/madVR907rc1.rar

It should also fix the banding issues when downscaling with linear light.
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Old 8th February 2016, 20:34   #35944  |  Link
Thunderbolt8
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Probably I used a too low bitdepth -texture format in order to save performance...
0o I though it was all about

"- no shortcuts, highest quality has priority over anything else"

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Old 8th February 2016, 20:40   #35945  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Does this one fix the problem, GCRaistlin?
Unfortunately no: http://mir.cr/BSOKEQFY
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Old 8th February 2016, 21:04   #35946  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by GCRaistlin View Post
Unfortunately no: http://mir.cr/BSOKEQFY
That log is *not* from the test build, but from official v0.90.6. Good thing I already renamed the test build to v0.90.7, otherwise I might not have noticed.
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Old 8th February 2016, 21:26   #35947  |  Link
GCRaistlin
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Quote:
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That log is *not* from the test build, but from official v0.90.6. Good thing I already renamed the test build to v0.90.7, otherwise I might not have noticed.
Yes, my fault, sorry. But you should have warned me that this test build won't create any logs if placed and installed (debug version) in a separate directory.
Anyway, now it works OK. Thank you!
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Old 8th February 2016, 22:15   #35948  |  Link
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I just watched a 1080p film downscaled to my 1024x768 plasma and NNEDI3 was not being used for chroma. madVR seems to be falling back to JINC AR for some reason. This was not an issue two builds ago since I watched two movies Saturday night with v0.90.4

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Old 8th February 2016, 22:37   #35949  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
As already mentioned by huhn and Asmodian, this is probably the consequence of trying to use Jinc upscaling while the image needs to be upscaled in one direction but downscaled in the other direction. In that situation madVR uses Lanczos3 AR for both up- and downscaling. Maybe I should revisit that. Might make sense to use the selected downscaling method instead for the downscaling part.
Jinc is not chosen as upscaler. The same downscaler as upscaler is always choosen if the image needs to be upscaled in one direction but downscaled in the other direction. If I choose softcubic as the upscaler, softcubic is also choosen as the downscaler etc.

Last edited by krille; 8th February 2016 at 22:46. Reason: I made a mistake
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Old 8th February 2016, 22:47   #35950  |  Link
4h4h270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
How does "now" define exactly? Starting with which madVR build? And which previous build did not have the problem?

Can you provide me with screenshots of the banding, compared to how a previous working madVR build didn't have banding in the same frame? Please also provide a screenshot of the original unscaled frame, so that I can try to reproduce the problem on my own PC. Which downscaling algo are you using?

Do you have any non-default "trade quality for performance" options selected, like e.g. "use 10bit image/chroma buffer" or something like that?
It happens from 0.90.6, I've tried 0.90.4 nothing wrong. I turn off all
"trade quality for performance" options. This bug can not reproduce by scrshot pic, only when playing video. Any downscale with linear light on and chroma upscale with reconstruction & jinc.

RAW:
http://abload.de/img/rawc1prg.png
0.90.6:
http://abload.de/img/rawc1prg.png
0.90.4:
http://abload.de/img/rawc1prg.png

Last edited by 4h4h270; 8th February 2016 at 22:53.
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Old 8th February 2016, 22:58   #35951  |  Link
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thanks for the new builds, just ran a few tests:

-first time I updated from .4 to .6 I was greeted with major posterizing but I don't seem to be able to reproduce anymore
-I don't like the 1.6 gamma thingie as it kills picture depth, I believe I prefer LL enabled but I would need to run more tests
-I can't get either SSIM options in .6 to look anywhere near as natural as in .4, I regularly get that stunning "look through a window" feeling with the latter but both options in .6 look way oversharp & aliased(I do run a combination of full SR + NNEDI for luma & RS for chroma so I'm on a tightrope so to speak), one being even worse than the other

time for some lighthouse ground truth comparisons I guess? should I use CC AR LL for the original 1080p>720p downscale?

Last edited by leeperry; 8th February 2016 at 23:38.
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Old 8th February 2016, 23:46   #35952  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCRaistlin View Post
now it works OK. Thank you!
Good to hear.

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Originally Posted by QBhd View Post
I just watched a 1080p film downscaled to my 1024x768 plasma and NNEDI3 was not being used for chroma. madVR seems to be falling back to JINC AR for some reason. This was not an issue two builds ago since I watched two movies Saturday night with v0.90.4
I suppose you're using linear light downscaling? Earlier madVR builds first upscaled chroma in that situation and then converted the image to RGB and then downscaled. The latest build may opt to scale luma and chroma separately for performance reasons. In that situation madVR only uses NNEDI3 for chroma upscaling if the upscaling factor needed for chroma is at least 1.5x. In your case it's 768/540 = 1.42, so madVR decided not to use NNEDI3 because it probably wouldn't bring any visual benefit.

I guess that's probably not something you like to hear? It does make sense to limit NNEDI3 to be used only for certain upscaling factors, though, especially for chroma (where upscaling quality is much less important than for luma, anyway). E.g. if you upscale chroma by only 5%, using NNEDI3 instead of e.g. Jinc or Lanczos wouldn't really bring any visible benefits. So I gotta define some upscaling factor at which NNEDI3 starts to be used.

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-first time I updated from .4 to .6 I was greeted with major posterizing but I don't seem to be able to reproduce anymore
See last couple of posts. Should be fixed in the next build.

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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
-I don't like the 1.6 gamma thingie as it kills picture depth, I believe I prefer LL enabled but I would need to run more tests
Ok, thanks.

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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
-I can't get either SSIM options in .6 to look anywhere as natural as in .4, I regularly get that stunning "look through a window" feeling with the latter but both options in .6 look way oversharp & aliased(I do run a combination of full SR + NNEDI for luma & RS for chroma so I'm on a tightrope so to speak), one being even worse than the other
SSIM in .4 was partially broken, at least when using gamma downscaling. It works as intended in .6 now.

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time for some lighthouse ground truth comparisons I guess?
The problem with that is that for downscaling we don't really have an objective groundtruth. You could make comparison screenshots, but with downscaling we're back at subjective "what looks better to your vs my eyes" judgement calls. The only way to judge this objectively would be to display the image in the original resolution on display A, then move display A back until the image has the same size as the downscaled image on display B. Then you can compare whether the downscaled image on display B looks near to the original res image on display A or not. But it will still be difficult to compare because it will be two different focus depths.

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Originally Posted by 4h4h270 View Post
It happens from 0.90.6, I've tried 0.90.4 nothing wrong.
Should be fixed in the next build.

Last edited by madshi; 9th February 2016 at 00:05.
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Old 8th February 2016, 23:48   #35953  |  Link
madshi
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madVR v0.90.7 released

http://madshi.net/madVR.zip

Code:
* fixed: banding when using linear light downscaling (introduced in v0.90.5)
* fixed: some problems when moving madVR to a different monitor
* fixed: OSD display bug when using different scaling algos for X and Y
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Old 9th February 2016, 00:02   #35954  |  Link
4h4h270
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no more banding now
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Old 9th February 2016, 00:19   #35955  |  Link
leeperry
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SSIM in .4 was partially broken, at least when using gamma downscaling. It works as intended in .6 now.
I far prefer SSIM LL AR in .4 than in .6 as either of the two new options in the latter are too sharp and aliased for my other settings(both SR/RS/NNEDI3/FRC/etc). I understand that you want to remove as many options as possible but they are all very much dependent on each other, I mean I personally already find strength 1 of both SR's too sharp so in the end a very sharp picture through an über-sharp downscaler ends up aliased and oversharpened

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The problem with that is that for downscaling we don't really have an objective groundtruth. You could make comparison screenshots, but with downscaling we're back at subjective "what looks better to your vs my eyes" judgement calls. The only way to judge this objectively would be to display the image in the original resolution on display A, then move display A back until the image has the same size as the downscaled image. Then you can compare whether the downscaled image looks near to that or not. But it will still be different to compare because it will be two different focus depths.
Right and for instance a videoprojector with 3 discrete panels will always suffer from misconvergence and strongly benefit from being fed a very sharp picture, but a LCD screen is plenty sharp to begin with so at the end of the day mVR is going for extreme sharpness but real life and cinema reels don't come with this "surgical" and harsh digital look, it should be possible for end-users to choose how sharp they want their picture and it's not quite possible atm in mVR if you want to enable all its bells & whistles

You made clear that soon there will only be one single SSIM button, either of them in .6 are useless to me when .4 looks so great <sigh>. You're the boss and I fullly respect that but how about a "soft" SSIM setting that wouldn't be any sharper than it was in .4 and another one called "sharp"? SSIM is meant to be sharper than CC AR LL but a sharpening downscaler without a single strength knob and when all other options(SR/RS/NNEDI3) are already extremely sharp all together end up next to unusable

My point is that bicubic downscaling now comes with as many as six sharpness options so you are effectively allowing us to subjectively pick its sharpness depending on the rest of our post-processing, personal taste and video display but SSIM is meant to go the other way around, with you deciding what looks subjectively best™ to you on your gear and us trying to adapt the rest of our settings to it.....but the only knobs I have access to are SR's and 1 is already VERY sharp for both of them =/

Oh well, talk about a missed opportunity bleh, I'll just bite the bullet and play around with the bicubic sharpness then. A sharper CC AR LL would be right up my alley I guess, hopefully I'll get it to deliver.


Last edited by leeperry; 9th February 2016 at 07:19.
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Old 9th February 2016, 00:43   #35956  |  Link
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sigmoidization zombie ate my brain

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There should be no negative RGB data. If there is, luma/luminance would be negative, too, in the same situation. I'm currently scaling in RGB. In all my tests I could rarely see a difference when scaling in RGB vs YCbCr. I'm currently doing sigmoidization in linear light RGB, and it does seem to help in some specific situations, and hurt in others, same as last time we tested this. I'm pretty sure that converting to YCbCr and only applying sigmoidization to Y wouldn't change anything at all. All that would do is to limit the effect of sigmoidization to the brightness information, while keeping color information unaffected. But brightness is where all the positive and negative sigmoidization changes are happening already right now, when doing all this in RGB. There's no effect on colors that I can see. So I don't think doing this in YCbCr instead of RGB would make any difference.

Or did I misunderstand your suggestion?
I indeed was suggesting that you only use sigmoidization with Y (or Y').

Here is something I don't understand. How do you manage to make sure that >>without clamping<< your RGB (or R'G'B') values are (for example) never negative when they are obtained by a conversion from something like >>destructively compressed<< YCbCr?

Last edited by NicolasRobidoux; 9th February 2016 at 08:51.
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Old 9th February 2016, 00:46   #35957  |  Link
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Hi Nicolas - long time no see!
First of all, atm all 3D related functionality in madVR is limited to 3D content coming from a compatible decoder with left and right eye images being sent separately. The only compatible decoder atm is nightly LAV and the LAV splitter currently only supports 3D MVC MKVs. This will hopefully be improved by nevcairiel soon. If you play movies which have the left & right images interweaved somehow (e.g. hard encoded as side-by-side), madVR treats them as 2D.

Your wiki might be a bit confusing to an end user, I think. Your "auto" section is probably meant to reach from "auto" until "Force 3D format below"? But in the midst of this "auto" section there are two more bold lines starting with "Active/Passive 3D". It's not totally clear if these still belong to the "auto" section or if they are meant to be separate sections. I'd optimize the font size and styles to make it clearer which parts of the text are meant to be one section and has which title etc.

The "Active/Passive 3D" lines are not clear. Since they stand under "auto", the end user might understand it as if madVR would automatically detect active/passive 3D displays and treat them differently. That's not the case.

"auto": madVR sends frame packed, if HDMI 1.4+ is available, *and* if the display supports this format. This can be an active or passive 3D display. If frame packing is not supported by either the GPU, OS or display, madVR instead renders the 3D video into "Half SBS".

"side-by-side": madVR renders Half SBS.

"top-and-bottom": madVR renders Half Top-and-bottom.

"line alternative" is described incorrectly. I'm not sure, maybe there's an official "line alternative" communication protocol that works as you describe. But that's not how madVR renders. This mode is for passive 3D displays which have polarizing filters which change polarization for each pixel row. The polarization is fixed, though. So for each frame sent by madVR, the odd lines are always for the same eye, and the even lines for the other eye. Odd/even does NOT change the eye from frame to frame.

"column alternative": same as "line alternative", just columns instead of rows/lines.

"swap left/right eye": This option is (in the long run) *not* meant to be used to fix sources which have the eyes in the wrong order. The problem with such sources should be fixed automatically by reading this information from the video file, and then communicating it to madVR. This will be added to future LAV + madVR builds. For now you can misuse this option to fix problems with such sources, but in the future this option has a different purpose: Some 3D displays *always* draw the images in the wrong order. So this option fixes that. Also for line/column alternative passive 3D displays it's not clearly defined which line/column is for which eye. So this option allows you to set that up correctly for each display.
Thanks for the clarification. I think I am (mostly) up to speed on how 3D tech works.
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Old 9th February 2016, 00:47   #35958  |  Link
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Could someone tell me the advantages of turning off 3D in the operating system during playback of 2D or 3D videos?
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Old 9th February 2016, 01:23   #35959  |  Link
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there is a dude that still thinks his PS4 is the ultimate player for blu ray.
i need to convince him that madvr passes every blu ray player out there for PQ if you starting to make use of the chroma upscaling settings.
but of course you need a fast graphics card to get the most out of it.

have anyone compared the picture quality from madvr with an PS4?
when and with what settings will madvr pass it?
it cant be that hard right ?

all i know is that i sold my Pioneer BDP-LX58 blu ray player last year after comparing it to madvr.
the PS4 must be way behind even that player right?

Last edited by Patrik G; 9th February 2016 at 01:27.
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Old 9th February 2016, 01:51   #35960  |  Link
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I've been looking around for a while now but can't find a good answer in regards to madvr, I get quite bad jitter at times with playback even with smoothing enabled, tried reclock and all sorts.

Thinking it might be because GPU limitation, system is running a Intel Pentium g3258 at 4ghz, I do have a gt220 laying around but don't know if it would help.

If it's definitely the intel hd graphics limiting my rendering performance then was thinking of getting a gt730 passive (for that sweet silence)

Thoughts on this?
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