Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Hardware & Software > Software players

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 3rd June 2019, 03:28   #56461  |  Link
Warner306
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,124
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
i give you the none complicated example missing out a lot of parts:

3840/21*9=~1646
that means you are upscaling an 3840x1646 image to 3840x2160. that's a lot of work and with doubling not much fun for the GPU.
but it's get's better projector are usually 4096x2160 so if you mess up the settings it's doomsday depending on your setting you may double 3840 to reach 4096.
Ok, I understand. You actually lose a lot of pixels by cropping the black bars. A safe setting for image upscaling with 4K content that doesn't use image doubling would help.

Cropping the movie won't change the aspect ratio of the pixels and the height of all aspect ratios is the same. I would think applying the projector's anamorphic stretch to the image cropped from madVR would result in the correct pixel dimensions if the anamorphic scaling doesn't know the aspect ratio of the source.

Last edited by Warner306; 3rd June 2019 at 03:31.
Warner306 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd June 2019, 03:30   #56462  |  Link
Warner306
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,124
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcec View Post
That simply is BS. See some examples:
dark knight bluray
dark knight uhd

interstellar bluray
interstellar uhd

There are many other 4k rescans from older films, where colors are very accurate (bladerunner, ghostbusters, etc). Warner Bros is clearly applying teal/orange to make things pop. If movie has that look originally (for instance Transformers), then I have no problem. But this change from original material needs to be outlawed.


There's nothing wrong with MadVR right now, it is reproducing The Prestige uhd disk as accurately as it can. However, as I said, UHD release has an awful teal+orange color grading applied to it.
prestige bluray
prestige uhd
I don't think it is BS. The original Blu-ray version was color graded as you wanted it to appear. It was Christopher Nolan that didn't want any manipulation of the Kodak film scans. All of his UHD movies distinctly look like old film prints. I don't always like it the look in some of those movies, but I don't think anyone would deliberately color the movie that way.

Last edited by Warner306; 3rd June 2019 at 03:32.
Warner306 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd June 2019, 04:53   #56463  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,888
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
Cropping the movie won't change the aspect ratio of the pixels and the height of all aspect ratios is the same. I would think applying the projector's anamorphic stretch to the image cropped from madVR would result in the correct pixel dimensions if the anamorphic scaling doesn't know the aspect ratio of the source.
this beats the point of an anamoprhic lens if you can't use most of the pixels. the other very important part an anamoprhic lens it gives you is more brightness you don't have to over throw.
so you should always use as much pixel as possible.
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd June 2019, 05:16   #56464  |  Link
Alexkral
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcec View Post
Yes, that's what I was talking about. I think that at least in part that's because of the ICtCp color correction, and it's not fixed. It looks too exaggerated in your screenshots, in my case it's not so much. If that's the only cause, you can get rid of that yellow/orange (sometimes even red) cast by checking "compromise on HDR tone & gamut mapping accuracy" under "trade quality for performance", which I think means that the tone mapping in done in RGB. The side effects are an excesive desaturation especially of highlights, and a hue shift of very brigh and saturated greens and reds to yellow which I actually find more pleasant.

Last edited by Alexkral; 3rd June 2019 at 05:23.
Alexkral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd June 2019, 06:46   #56465  |  Link
bcec
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
I don't think it is BS. The original Blu-ray version was color graded as you wanted it to appear. It was Christopher Nolan that didn't want any manipulation of the Kodak film scans. All of his UHD movies distinctly look like old film prints. I don't always like it the look in some of those movies, but I don't think anyone would deliberately color the movie that way.
Nolan pulled the same stuff for 2001 re-release.
Warner is doing it again for the upcoming Batman releases (see screenshots)
This is done on purpose. Teal & Orange grading is a thing in hollywood nowadays (read more about why they do it here). I am ok with the artistic choice for a new movie, but I dislike it when they retroactively apply it to an older one that did not have this look before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexkral View Post
Yes, that's what I was talking about. I think that at least in part that's because of the ICtCp color correction, and it's not fixed. It looks too exaggerated in your screenshots, in my case it's not so much. If that's the only cause, you can get rid of that yellow/orange (sometimes even red) cast by checking "compromise on HDR tone & gamut mapping accuracy" under "trade quality for performance", which I think means that the tone mapping in done in RGB. The side effects are an excesive desaturation especially of highlights, and a hue shift of very brigh and saturated greens and reds to yellow which I actually find more pleasant.
There may be other things going on perhaps, but these movies have been regraded with the teal-orange look.
bcec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd June 2019, 08:48   #56466  |  Link
Charky
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexkral View Post
Why not? If what you want is just to remove a color cast then it's just a matter of color balancing. Probably not a good idea as you said, and certainly not a job for madVR anyway.
Well, first, because color grading is a shot by shot process, and sometimes even changes in the same shot. You don't color grade an entire movie (or "uncolor grade" it) with a single LUT or a set of slider, that's just not how it works. It would look good in the scene you take as a reference point and bad in every other one.

Even if you created a system that scans every frame and changes colors "on the fly" (a kind of "dynamic color grading"), the end result would probably be shitty anyway because your picture is not raw "flat" neutral footage, but already color graded. One of the many problems I can think of is that teal & orange color grading often purposely crushes blacks you obviously can't "uncrush" with color balancing : the details are already lost. Maybe a talented colorist could mitigate the teal & orange look by manually recoloring the movie shot by shot, but I don't trust an algorithm to understand what looks good to human eyes. Anyway, if you have an algorithm that can do that, I suggest you call Adobe, they'll buy it for sure

Of course, I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but in the meantime, I'll take a carefully graded teal & orange picture over an awkwardly automatically desaturated/recolored one a million times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bcec View Post
This is not true, there are many features in madVR that enhances the image by changing the source material in one way or another. For instance de-ringing, denoise, thin edges, crispen edges, and the list goes on. It doesn't simply display the given data, it manipulates it in different ways.
These features should only be used to restore a picture degraded by several steps of compression. With the exception of denoise/add grain, they don't really mess with the original artistic intent. By contrast, IMO, modifying the movie colors is like giving the director the middle finger.
__________________
Charky

"Rule #1 : If it works, don't change anything."

Last edited by Charky; 3rd June 2019 at 09:51.
Charky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd June 2019, 11:36   #56467  |  Link
mclingo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 843
would switching white balance to a cooler setting negate some of the yellow grading or would that be too course, I noticed this a lot in the 4k interstellar release, I much prefer the 1080p bluray.
__________________
OLED EF950-YAMAHA RX-V685-Win101809-4K 444 RGB 60hz-AMD RX580 19.9.2
KODI DS - MAD/LAV 92.14/0.74.1 - 3D / DIRECT3D11 / MADVR 10bit
mclingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd June 2019, 11:40   #56468  |  Link
chros
Registered User
 
chros's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,487
Quote:
Originally Posted by Village Guy View Post
I have been testing HDR on the latest build passing thru metadata. HDR mode kicks in perfectly, unfortunatley it gets stuck in HDR mode until I reboot the PC. Is this a known anomaly?
I have the same with FSE, did you use FSE? If so then try fullscreen window mode (FSW).
__________________
Ryzen 5 2600,Asus Prime b450-Plus,16GB,MSI GTX 1060 Gaming X 6GB(v385.28),Win10 LTSB 1607,MPC-BEx64+LAV+MadVR,Yamaha RX-A870,LG OLED65B8(2160p@23/24/25/29/30/50/59/60Hz)
chros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd June 2019, 12:57   #56469  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,888
that why i said try a hard clip 3d LUT.

the bigger meaning behind that was to measure the white point using the same scene and comparing them.
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd June 2019, 13:49   #56470  |  Link
Charky
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by mclingo View Post
would switching white balance to a cooler setting negate some of the yellow grading or would that be too course, I noticed this a lot in the 4k interstellar release, I much prefer the 1080p bluray.
That most likely won't work, because as I said, color grading is a shot by shot process.

Take Interstellar. This page has comparison screenshots between 1080p & 4K releases : https://archimago.blogspot.com/2018/...-ray-does.html

You can see that some shots are heavily altered, while some others are not modified at all.

Even if modifying white balance actually worked on the shots that most bother you (and TBH I highly doubt the result would look natural...), every other shot in the movie would probably end up blue-ish or looking unnatural in a way or another.
__________________
Charky

"Rule #1 : If it works, don't change anything."
Charky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd June 2019, 14:33   #56471  |  Link
tp4tissue
Registered User
 
tp4tissue's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 406
The Human Touch, ruining our movies.. Damn you colorists, y you need so much teal..


if y'all just bump up color temp to 7000-7500k it should take alot of red/green out of the picture.

For example it works well on the latest Broly Funimation bluray

Best done via 3D lut, otherwise the overall balance will be very odd looking.


The bulk of the problem is most likely the studio upgrading to very different grading monitors . The new sony and dolby hdr sets. There's going to be a rough patch in releases for a while, before they dial it in.
__________________
Ghetto | 2500k 5Ghz

Last edited by tp4tissue; 3rd June 2019 at 14:36.
tp4tissue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd June 2019, 14:36   #56472  |  Link
nevcairiel
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hamburg/Germany
Posts: 9,818
Quote:
Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
if y'all just bump up color temp to 7000-7500k it should take alot of red/green out of the picture.

For example it works well on the latest Broly Funimation bluray

Best done via 3D lut, otherwise the overall balance will be very odd looking.
Read one post above yours. This is often done scene-by-scene, and such a broad approach would ruin the scenes that don't have this treatment.
__________________
LAV Filters - open source ffmpeg based media splitter and decoders
nevcairiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd June 2019, 14:43   #56473  |  Link
tp4tissue
Registered User
 
tp4tissue's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 406
It would not RUIN scenes. You guys are taking this out of proportion.

There is NO RIGHT COLOR. If the colorist graded it more green this time around, well that's that, It looked good to him, he lives and breaths color, his taste and experiences are highly refined in this area, I'll take his word for it.

Now, on our end, +500 +1000k is a good compromise. We are not even that sensitive in the blue range, that small a difference on a scene that's mostly blue won't be perceived that differently.

The bulk of the lard-butts sitting at home complaining about teal when they don't even own a colorimeter.
__________________
Ghetto | 2500k 5Ghz
tp4tissue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd June 2019, 15:11   #56474  |  Link
mclingo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 843
maybe they've got colourometers...
__________________
OLED EF950-YAMAHA RX-V685-Win101809-4K 444 RGB 60hz-AMD RX580 19.9.2
KODI DS - MAD/LAV 92.14/0.74.1 - 3D / DIRECT3D11 / MADVR 10bit
mclingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd June 2019, 15:15   #56475  |  Link
tp4tissue
Registered User
 
tp4tissue's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 406
There are 3 possibilites.

The FIRST disc release was wrong

The SECOND disc release was wrong

Neither the First, Nor the Second release was wrong. They're all gud'


What if you've only seen 2 women in your whole life. Which one is uglier.

We ask our colorist pal, hey doug, you've seen 1000s of women, the Green one is good ?, Yes Todd, I think the green one is swell.

Overall, color is a preference, So at-home critiques are valid. However, Whatever comes out of the studio, THAT is among the most informed choices, because the guy doing it is a professional.


Similarly, in machining, back when hss blades were hand sharpened/ grinded, there was always this guy who would angle the relief angles a little differently, because over time, his experience told him to do that.

Same with the colorist who decided m0ar Green.
__________________
Ghetto | 2500k 5Ghz

Last edited by tp4tissue; 3rd June 2019 at 15:19.
tp4tissue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd June 2019, 15:33   #56476  |  Link
el Filou
Registered User
 
el Filou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
It would not RUIN scenes. You guys are taking this out of proportion.
If you apply a blanket colour temperature correction to a whole movie because you don't like how the colour grading was changed only in some scenes, then yes you potentially would ruin the other scenes. Just take a look at the link posted by Charky, it's a perfect example.
You can't keep mentioning all the time that people need to invest in a colorimeter because calibration is essential etc., and then argue that changing colour temperature for a whole movie wouldn't ruin it, that's completely illogical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
There is NO RIGHT COLOR. If the colorist graded it more green this time around, well that's that
People have been trying to explain that this not how it's done. There's no "let's grade this one more green overall". Which is why there's no way to 'correct' it with a single setting change.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
The bulk of the lard-butts sitting at home complaining about teal when they don't even own a colorimeter.
You don't need a colorimeter to be able to spot a difference in colour grading in two different versions of a same scene on the same screen. Even if your calibration is wrong, you still see the image has changed in a certain way.
__________________
HTPC: Windows 10 1809, MediaPortal 1, LAV Filters, ReClock, madVR. DVB-C TV, Panasonic GT60, 6.0 speakers Denon 2310, Core 2 Duo E7400, GeForce 1050 Ti
el Filou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd June 2019, 15:45   #56477  |  Link
Charky
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 58
It's not just a matter of personal preference, the colors you will end up with if you modify blindly your whole picture with color temp or color balance will mostly always look worse than what you started with.

Just look at skin tones : colorists are aware that a picture won't look natural if skin tones are greenish or redish or blueish. So even a heavily teal & orange LUT has to be tweaked to achieve natural looking skin tones. Every NLE software has a way to do secondary color correction to achieve this.

Any way you look at it, tinkering your whole picture with white balance just to change the global "hue" of the movie, and attempting to "counter" an artistic intent that, even if you don't like it, has been carefully crafted shot by shot, is probably a bad idea and will get you weird results. You might as well put a light blue colored candy wrapper on your projector's lens

Quote:
Originally Posted by el Filou View Post
You don't need a colorimeter to be able to spot a difference in colour grading in two different versions of a same scene on the same screen. Even if your calibration is wrong, you still see the image has changed in a certain way.
You could even say that even with a dE of 4 or 5 (which is worse than most displays, even out of the box, when they are set with their most accurate preset), teal is still teal
__________________
Charky

"Rule #1 : If it works, don't change anything."

Last edited by Charky; 3rd June 2019 at 16:57.
Charky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd June 2019, 18:25   #56478  |  Link
Alexkral
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 130
I had noticed that in Interstellar but I didn't think it was due to the grading. Anyway I still think that this is more accentuated because of the way in which the color correction is done in ICtCp, and even more so if no gamut mapping is done. What I specifically refer to is this:

SDR
HDR to SDR (ICtCp)
HDR to SDR (RGB)
Alexkral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd June 2019, 20:03   #56479  |  Link
KoKlusz
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcec View Post
Nolan pulled the same stuff for 2001 re-release.
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...8#post14974628
Quote:
The trailer is a scan from the new print Nolan had struck from the original negative (pin-registration is a giveaway). This print stock is almost certainly 65mm Kodak 2383, which is the most common print stock and Nolanís stock of choice for all of his celluloid showings.

Part of Kodak 2383ís characteristics include a warm push in the highlight regions and a blue/teal push to shadow regions. Using a 2383 Look-Up-Table on footage scanned/encoded as Cineon Log shows this effect. The interpositives used for the 4K releases of Nolanís work, particularly the new copies of Inception and Dunkirk, show this effect clearly.
Also, UHD version is not affected since it's a scan from original camera negative, and not interpositive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcec View Post
Warner is doing it again for the upcoming Batman releases (see screenshots)
Again, UHD version is unaffected, it seems like Warner colorist is doing something wrong when converting BT2020 to REC709. Although this been happening for a while now (IIRC remastered blurays of Matrix trilogy and 2001 also have this problem).

Quote:
Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
There are 3 possibilites.

The FIRST disc release was wrong

The SECOND disc release was wrong

Neither the First, Nor the Second release was wrong. They're all gud'
But we know for a fact that the first release was wrong. UHD discs are far more faithful to the way these movies where intended to be seen.
KoKlusz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd June 2019, 21:22   #56480  |  Link
Siso
Registered User
 
Siso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Bulgaria
Posts: 402
Quote:
Originally Posted by KoKlusz View Post
UHD discs are far more faithful to the way these movies where intended to be seen.
I'm not so sure about that tho. Some blu-rays are closer to the colors in the cinema - for example Avengers: Infinity War. Or I may be wrong.

Last edited by Siso; 3rd June 2019 at 21:30.
Siso is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 17:35.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.