Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Hardware & Software > Software players

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 30th July 2016, 12:33   #38981  |  Link
ryrynz
Registered User
 
ryrynz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,712
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
it is needed for correct color anyway.
He's aware that he's destroying his image and he's okay with it
ryrynz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th July 2016, 20:40   #38982  |  Link
Georgel
Visual Novel Dev.
 
Georgel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Bucharest
Posts: 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
He's aware that he's destroying his image and he's okay with it
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
it is not hard to show why dithering is needed.

dithering
no dithering

it is needed for correct color anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
If you're aware of limitations on certain content with reducing ringing please upload before and after screenshots or a sample, thanks. The halo reduction as stated in the options isn't recommended for anime.
How do you get that image ?

But even so...

There is something going on on my side.

Just let me try one thing.

This is processed through all of my filters. Adding dithering will just add noise. but it's an exact frame, and can;t find the episode or the frame right now.



https://www.dropbox.com/s/zvj84qdbj8...a-120.png?dl=0

Click for full res I think?

The point is, it looks better than original, better than dithered, and has no visible problems, it's more high resolution and looks smooth.

EDIT ::: What I don't actually get is... It does erase some things... like smoothens things out... like, this would look kinda too smooth, or way too smooth for move materials, unnatural. but for anime, it's just so much cleaner and higher resolution looking... With anime, all that it erases are actually bits of noise? I don't know, when it erases something, what gets erased looks like it was not overly relevant.

Last edited by Georgel; 30th July 2016 at 23:38.
Georgel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th July 2016, 21:18   #38983  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,556
the dithered image is "perfect" make sure it isn't scaled.
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th July 2016, 23:37   #38984  |  Link
Georgel
Visual Novel Dev.
 
Georgel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Bucharest
Posts: 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
the dithered image is "perfect" make sure it isn't scaled.
Oh.

Looking over the reasons why adding dither might have noise, my panel is 6 bit. Now this is messed up, but it's the most sold laptop high end display, and it has just 6 bits.

Maybe this is a reason why on my setup I see un-dithered images better? I mean, it would make sense for it to be otherwise, as far as common sense goes.

http://www.panelook.com/LP173WF4-SPF...iew_21056.html

Something seems wrong on my side honestly.

Well, many many people have this display, so the instructions are not entirely wrong, but curiosity is burning me on what is going on.

It just looks cleaner to me when deactivating dithering. On the display. Man, I can't wait to get my 100% adobeRGB AUO to escape this nonsense.

The more scary thing is that I too think that it should be the other way around, I do believe that dithering should make it better. It just does not work on my setup, adding a layer of visible noise
Georgel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2016, 00:43   #38985  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgel View Post
The more scary thing is that I too think that it should be the other way around, I do believe that dithering should make it better. It just does not work on my setup, adding a layer of visible noise
Dithering does add noise, it spreads the error out so on average pixels will have the right color. This is best seen on a video of a still image with "change dither for every frame" checked (and playback not paused). The result will be slightly more noisy, but the colors should be much more correct on average.

Since your panel is 6-bit (it may have its own high frequency dithering up to 8-bit, usually indicated with the acronym "FRC"), have you tried telling madVR this by settings its "native display bitdepth" to 6 bit in the devices section? 8 bit dithering should be almost imperceptible, so I expect that 6 bit dithering will be more noisy, not less - but 6 bit does match your display.
Ver Greeneyes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2016, 01:27   #38986  |  Link
Georgel
Visual Novel Dev.
 
Georgel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Bucharest
Posts: 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ver Greeneyes View Post
Dithering does add noise, it spreads the error out so on average pixels will have the right color. This is best seen on a video of a still image with "change dither for every frame" checked (and playback not paused). The result will be slightly more noisy, but the colors should be much more correct on average.

Since your panel is 6-bit (it may have its own high frequency dithering up to 8-bit, usually indicated with the acronym "FRC"), have you tried telling madVR this by settings its "native display bitdepth" to 6 bit in the devices section? 8 bit dithering should be almost imperceptible, so I expect that 6 bit dithering will be more noisy, not less - but 6 bit does match your display.
I've been using 10 bit in display setup, since setting that to 6 bit seemed to affect the image in a negative way, seemed to induce more noise. I think that you're right and the display already applies a layer of dithering over the image. It's theoretically capable of a bit larger color space coverage than an average LCD despite being 6bit, so I think it has some software doing this.

Maybe this is how it works for this display only... Too bad it almost the universal display for 17" FHD high end gaming laptops. It's even Gsync capable, but not on my Acer...

I guess that I'll probably note a change on the settings I recommend after getting a 99% adobeRGB display to work on
Georgel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2016, 01:58   #38987  |  Link
Patrik G
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Sweden
Posts: 58
question:
why is motion resolution so low with madrv and the FPD motion test?
this 500M has over 800 lines of motion resolution but with madvr and this test it judders like crazy.
even down to 100 lines.

i have tested with different settings and there is no dropped frames.
checking the same motion resolution test with windows build in movie viewer and its smooth as it should.

what trix needs to be disabled in madvr to get back the default motion resolution?

Last edited by Patrik G; 31st July 2016 at 02:02.
Patrik G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2016, 08:14   #38988  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,556
what settings are you using and is your TV using interpolation at what refreshrate is it running?

can you amke a screen of the OSD and a screen with athe windows movie player?
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2016, 09:17   #38989  |  Link
ryrynz
Registered User
 
ryrynz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,712
Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgel View Post
That does't look like it has thin edges 8 applied to it at all. I'm not seeing any edge issues there..Really need the original frame, but if I'm judging this picture on it's appearance, I can't fault it.
In saying that, other content may well look worse with those settings.

Last edited by ryrynz; 31st July 2016 at 09:19.
ryrynz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2016, 11:01   #38990  |  Link
pose
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 69
ryrynz, here is comparison from his own site. To me the after picture looks unnatural and with lots of details missing.
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-wv05mfBis...rned%2Boff.png
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-S6k4Cru_J...ening%2Bx4.png
pose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2016, 11:58   #38991  |  Link
ryrynz
Registered User
 
ryrynz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,712
Quote:
Originally Posted by pose View Post
ryrynz, here is comparison from his own site. To me the after picture looks unnatural and with lots of details missing.
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-wv05mfBis...rned%2Boff.png
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-S6k4Cru_J...ening%2Bx4.png
Thanks. It's certainly further than I'd go, the edges aren't something you want to thin down considerably.. better to sharpen them and just thin them just a little.
The overall detail is still there there's actually little change to most of the image except for the lines, I don't understand the reason why people want to thin them so much, it ruin's the appearance of the characters.

Sometimes I found even thin edges at 1.0 went a bit overboard so I stopped using it and just rely on a Awarpsharpen, and a touch of line darkening through Avisynth along with some sharpening through madVR depending on the source.
I can make IMO 480 anime look similar to 720 content. It's all about having a firm yet gentle hand, it's easy to over do it.

Last edited by ryrynz; 31st July 2016 at 12:03.
ryrynz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2016, 12:46   #38992  |  Link
Georgel
Visual Novel Dev.
 
Georgel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Bucharest
Posts: 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
Thanks. It's certainly further than I'd go, the edges aren't something you want to thin down considerably.. better to sharpen them and just thin them just a little.
The overall detail is still there there's actually little change to most of the image except for the lines, I don't understand the reason why people want to thin them so much, it ruin's the appearance of the characters.

Sometimes I found even thin edges at 1.0 went a bit overboard so I stopped using it and just rely on a Awarpsharpen, and a touch of line darkening through Avisynth along with some sharpening through madVR depending on the source.
I can make IMO 480 anime look similar to 720 content. It's all about having a firm yet gentle hand, it's easy to over do it.
Mostly because my screen in FHD and I want all anime to look FHD

Some algorithms are less needed in some anime that were natively produced in FHD, so I'm playing around with my settings a lot, but that image represents exactly why I love edge thinning.

It;s mostly about getting rid of blurry and too thick edges that make things look fuzzy. Not that much about thinning really, as much as about making edges look tangible, opposed to the gaussian blurred filtered look they have sometimes.

Well, I agree that sometimes it might be overkill and the image might degrade, so I think I might have to also step down a bit on the details.

I also think that for my images examples I'm using upscaling refinement -> edge thinning 8.0 while for image enhancements I'm stepping it down a lot, as it does break eyes of anime characters.

For real media content, I think that the sweet spot is (for me?) around 2.8 for edge thinning on image enhancements, whilst I'm still testing for upscaling refinement.
Georgel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2016, 12:47   #38993  |  Link
Georgel
Visual Novel Dev.
 
Georgel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Bucharest
Posts: 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by pose View Post
ryrynz, here is comparison from his own site. To me the after picture looks unnatural and with lots of details missing.
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-wv05mfBis...rned%2Boff.png
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-S6k4Cru_J...ening%2Bx4.png

I don't think that details are missing. The backgrounds look less blurry really, even closer to a clear image
Georgel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2016, 15:03   #38994  |  Link
Patrik G
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Sweden
Posts: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
what settings are you using and is your TV using interpolation at what refreshrate is it running?

can you amke a screen of the OSD and a screen with athe windows movie player?
settings doesnt matter as i have changed all and it doesnt affect the motion test.
i use 60Hz at 1080P
run the test for yourself and see what you come up with.
it runs at 60fps
http://privat.bahnhof.se/wb192876/FP...Resolution.mp4

but madvr and its smooth motion must be doing something good because motion on 24p content is way better (more fluid) than on the build in windows media player which this test runs smooth on.
so i think this motion test doesnt say it all about motion performance.
not for 24p content anyway.

but just for the papers

Last edited by Patrik G; 31st July 2016 at 15:07.
Patrik G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2016, 16:45   #38995  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,556
this test file is kind of broken.

it is interlanced and madVr isn't deinterlancing it because it is saying that is has 60 FPS before deinterlancing.

when lavfilter is deinterlancing than madVr things this file is 120 hz.
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2016, 17:25   #38996  |  Link
a8213711
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 31
I just discovered the results of Image Enhancements don't appear in the images saved with MPC-HC; are there many other functions which don't appear when saving images?
a8213711 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2016, 17:48   #38997  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,556
if i'm not mistaken nearly everything is not applied there.
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2016, 18:31   #38998  |  Link
Asmodian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 2,988
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
if i'm not mistaken nearly everything is not applied there.
Doesn't that function actually get the video before madVR has even done scaling? I think it grabs the frame after decoding but before madVR.
__________________
madVR options explained
Asmodian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2016, 18:36   #38999  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,556
you still need to do a YCbCr->RGB conversation and madVR has to do that.

i have no clue if the selected chroma scaler is used for that or not.
if i remember correctly it is dithering even with disabled dithering(don't do this).
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2016, 21:36   #39000  |  Link
Georgel
Visual Novel Dev.
 
Georgel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Bucharest
Posts: 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by a8213711 View Post
I just discovered the results of Image Enhancements don't appear in the images saved with MPC-HC; are there many other functions which don't appear when saving images?
But the enhancements appear when you press print screen, if you want to notice differences, as far as I know.
Georgel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:58.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.