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Old 15th April 2015, 15:30   #28981  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
Is it not possible to do a single resize of the chroma with the chroma upscaler from the get go?
IIRC, madVR used to do that in the beginning, but quality and performance reportedly improved when it moved to the current model.

Unless you have an actual problem, just accept how it works internally? madshi probably put some thought into how it would work best.
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Old 15th April 2015, 18:26   #28982  |  Link
Arm3nian
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
at 60 HZ the effect should be minimal to the eyes. but if you use any kind of frame interpolation in your TV madVR SM is not a good idea. but i wouldn't be shocked if some TV exposes some easily spot able issue with SM.
on an LCD without frame interpolation there should be any problems they have a motion clearness of only 300p anyway you can't get less sharpness then this.
Frame interpolation works fine with SM.
Quote:
Where do you get that from? Frame interpolation works fine with SM.

it's rare that a screen has flawed 23p/24p but it happens. so this screen maybe has a problem with that mode. some people even say that about some OLED screens
Which further proves my point that SM works for everyone and offers the same benefits. You also forget that not every display can be set to 23/24.

Quote:


MPC-BE audio renderer can resample audio to match the video clock like reclock?
MPC-HC MPC Audio renderer is broken it's even labeled broken move your mouse over and read: "MPC Audio renderer is broken, do not use" the BE version should be better. a new MPC-HC audio renderer is planned BTW.
MPCBE doesn't need to resample audio to match the video clock. I meant it resamples the sample rate, bit depth, etc, things an audio renderer does. And yes MPCHC audio renderer is broken, that's literally what my post said.
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Old 15th April 2015, 19:06   #28983  |  Link
e-t172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
The audio renderer provides the reference clock, so it is indeed quite off-topic.
But in the case of Reclock, it's basically a hack. Reclock has to guess what the refresh rate is and resample the audio based on that. If it guesses wrong (for example it's using the wrong screen), the clock won't be synced to the video, and therefore frame drops/repeats will occur.

It would be cleaner from a DirectShow architecture perspective to have madVR provide the DirectShow clock for Reclock, because as a video renderer, it's madVR's job to know the screen's refresh rate. Therefore, if you want to slave the audio clock to the video clock, then it's better to have the video renderer provide the clock, and then slave the (resampling) audio renderer to that clock.

That said, I'm mostly nitpicking here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arm3nian View Post
MPCBE doesn't need to resample audio to match the video clock.
Assuming Smooth Motion isn't used, and a multiple refresh rate is used, there are two possible scenarios:
- You slave the video clock to the audio clock (default case), in which case you get frame drops/repeats; OR
- You slave the audio clock to the video clock (Reclock case), in which case you need to resample the audio.

You can either get one or the other. There is no free lunch. Unfortunately that's the way it is on computers. Set-top boxes don't have this problem because they have the same hardware clock for both video and audio.
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Old 15th April 2015, 19:35   #28984  |  Link
Arm3nian
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Originally Posted by e-t172 View Post
Assuming Smooth Motion isn't used, and a multiple refresh rate is used, there are two possible scenarios:
- You slave the video clock to the audio clock (default case), in which case you get frame drops/repeats; OR
- You slave the audio clock to the video clock (Reclock case), in which case you need to resample the audio.

You can either get one or the other. There is no free lunch. Unfortunately that's the way it is on computers. Set-top boxes don't have this problem because they have the same hardware clock for both video and audio.
Why would you need reclock if a multiple refresh rate is used? Reclock is used when you don't have a multiple refresh rate, but can get close. If your screen refresh rate can't come close to the source material then reclock is useless. In other words, use SM.

Frame repeats are also highly exaggerated.
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Old 15th April 2015, 20:27   #28985  |  Link
e-t172
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Originally Posted by Arm3nian View Post
Why would you need reclock if a multiple refresh rate is used? Reclock is used when you don't have a multiple refresh rate, but can get close.
Of course, that's what I meant. As I said, it's impossible to get an exact multiple anyway, because that would mean using the same clock, which is not possible on a PC. I guess I failed to mention the case where you can get so close that it doesn't really matter, but you need to do a lot of tinkering and trial&error to get to that point.
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Old 15th April 2015, 21:16   #28986  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by Arm3nian View Post
Frame interpolation works fine with SM.
how to frame interoplate a blended frame? of cause you can use it with SVP but for a simple reason. SVP runs before SM.

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Which further proves my point that SM works for everyone and offers the same benefits. You also forget that not every display can be set to 23/24.
i know and i use it on my gaming PC. but plasma user report visible ghosting problems. and i'm still very possive that blended frames create problems for TV frame interpolation.

Quote:
MPCBE doesn't need to resample audio to match the video clock. I meant it resamples the sample rate, bit depth, etc, things an audio renderer does. And yes MPCHC audio renderer is broken, that's literally what my post said.
and how do you do 25 hz -> 24 hz ? reclock is simple not useless. i told other "you could use SM at 60 HZ and not reclock" but if people have reason to use reclock or problems with SM i simple have nothing to add there.
i'm 99% sure i can find the SM using display in a blind test and that in a short time.
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Old 15th April 2015, 21:40   #28987  |  Link
flashmozzg
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Where does madVR save freeze reports? I can't find them, trying to make one because it freezed again. Found them on my desktop... Silly me =)
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Can you guys please create a freeze report (Ctrl+Alt+Shift+Break) and upload it somewhere (not here) and link here, so that I can look at it?
https://mega.co.nz/#!JRlGBaKL!G1W2ME...AjLJ-ltYSb6yWQ

Last edited by flashmozzg; 15th April 2015 at 21:50.
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Old 15th April 2015, 22:03   #28988  |  Link
XMonarchY
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
@XMonarchY

64 bit has better decoding performance. so it can matter a lot for software decoding.

in term of madVR performance there shouldn't be any real differences.

and about your issue we need way more information that just "if i got in FSE mode i get dropped frames"

resolution? what settings what are the renderer times, FPS, and way more questions.
Obviously 64bit has better decoding, but using ReClock is quite important for those who want perfect sound+video sync.., which is only possible with ReClock, which is and always will be x86 (32bit)...

I use the latest MPC-HC 1.7.8 x86, ReClock 1.8.8.4 x86, madVR 0.87.21 (reset older version to default and properly uninstalled, then installed new version and reset to defaults) and the latest LAV Filters 0.64. My LAV Video filter uses nVidia CUVID (for all 9 boxes underneath), Enabled Adaptive H/W Interlacing for 25/30p Films with High Quality Processing. The rest is default.

I use high quality settings:
- Rec.709 3DLUT (ArgyllCMS 1.7.0 non-buggy Beta dev. release + dispcalGUI 2.9.0.7 Beta)
- Reduce Banding Artifacts = enabled for lower quality videos
- Chroma Upscaling = NNEDI3 64 neurons
- Image Doubling and Quadrupling (both Luma and Chroma) = "Always, If Upscaling Needed" = 32 neurons for each of 4 boxes
- Image Upscaling = Jinc 3 tap + "Activate Anti-Ringing Filter"
- Image Downsaling = Catmull-Rom with "Activate Anti-Ringing Filter" & "Scaling in Linear Light"
- Smooth Motion = Off
- Dithering = Error Diffusion - Option 1, Use Colored Noise = NOT selected/ticked, Change Dither for Every Frame = NOT selected/ticked
- Trade Quality for Performance = all boxes are UN-ticked
- The rest = default (aside from FSE)

Framerate drops occur in H.264 .MKV films recorded @ 1080p with high quality. My rig specs are in my sig (3770K @ 4.8Ghz, GTX 980 4GB, 1080p monitor, SSD, Windows 8.1).

Of course I would get rid of framerate drop by reducing NNEDI3 from 64 neurons to 32 neurons, but that is not a solution because when FSE is not enabled, no frames are dropped with NNEDI3 set to 64 neurons.

Its no big deal, but I am just curious. I figured FSE would actually be better as far frame dropping goes...
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Last edited by XMonarchY; 15th April 2015 at 22:07.
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Old 15th April 2015, 22:37   #28989  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by XMonarchY View Post
Obviously 64bit has better decoding, but using ReClock is quite important for those who want perfect sound+video sync.., which is only possible with ReClock, which is and always will be x86 (32bit)...
nope reclock is not nneded for this but not this tapic again...

Quote:
I use the latest MPC-HC 1.7.8 x86, ReClock 1.8.8.4 x86, madVR 0.87.21 (reset older version to default and properly uninstalled, then installed new version and reset to defaults) and the latest LAV Filters 0.64. My LAV Video filter uses nVidia CUVID (for all 9 boxes underneath), Enabled Adaptive H/W Interlacing for 25/30p Films with High Quality Processing. The rest is default.

I use high quality settings:
- Rec.709 3DLUT (ArgyllCMS 1.7.0 non-buggy Beta dev. release + dispcalGUI 2.9.0.7 Beta)
- Reduce Banding Artifacts = enabled for lower quality videos
- Chroma Upscaling = NNEDI3 64 neurons
- Image Doubling and Quadrupling (both Luma and Chroma) = "Always, If Upscaling Needed" = 32 neurons for each of 4 boxes
- Image Upscaling = Jinc 3 tap + "Activate Anti-Ringing Filter"
- Image Downsaling = Catmull-Rom with "Activate Anti-Ringing Filter" & "Scaling in Linear Light"
- Smooth Motion = Off
- Dithering = Error Diffusion - Option 1, Use Colored Noise = NOT selected/ticked, Change Dither for Every Frame = NOT selected/ticked
- Trade Quality for Performance = all boxes are UN-ticked
- The rest = default (aside from FSE)

Framerate drops occur in H.264 .MKV films recorded @ 1080p with high quality. My rig specs are in my sig (3770K @ 4.8Ghz, GTX 980 4GB, 1080p monitor, SSD, Windows 8.1).

Of course I would get rid of framerate drop by reducing NNEDI3 from 64 neurons to 32 neurons, but that is not a solution because when FSE is not enabled, no frames are dropped with NNEDI3 set to 64 neurons.

Its no big deal, but I am just curious. I figured FSE would actually be better as far frame dropping goes...
rendertimes? FSE shouldn't add noticeable rendertimes.
and there are some questionable settings but this is not a madVR setup guide.
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Old 15th April 2015, 23:53   #28990  |  Link
Arm3nian
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
how to frame interoplate a blended frame? of cause you can use it with SVP but for a simple reason. SVP runs before SM.



i know and i use it on my gaming PC. but plasma user report visible ghosting problems. and i'm still very possive that blended frames create problems for TV frame interpolation.
Can't those users just turn off motion interpolation on their tv? Seems to me there are more people who dislike things like SVP than favor it.


Quote:
and how do you do 25 hz -> 24 hz ? reclock is simple not useless. i told other "you could use SM at 60 HZ and not reclock" but if people have reason to use reclock or problems with SM i simple have nothing to add there.
i'm 99% sure i can find the SM using display in a blind test and that in a short time.
Well you don't need to convert 25fps to 24 if using SM. I do see some valid uses for reclock, but they are very niche. You need a display that supports custom refresh rates, SM somehow doesn't work for you, and your tv has interpolation that cannot be turned off. Reclock also creates static when I use it with my external dac.

The TV in my family room supports 24hz, but I prefer to keep it at 60hz and use SM. Why? Because it's annoying to configure filter settings and seek in the video if your screen is at 24hz. The mouse lag is ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
nope reclock is not nneded for this but not this tapic again...
Agreed, I don't know where they get ideas like this from. You get no frame repeats/drops if you use SM. If anything it is cleaner because the video does not have to be slowed down or sped up and the audio is untouched.

Reclock uses the crystal on your motherboard, and your monitor uses the crystal in it's pcb. Anyone who thinks these crystals are 100% stable, precise, and fully match all the other clocks needs to read some more.

Last edited by Arm3nian; 15th April 2015 at 23:58.
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Old 16th April 2015, 00:04   #28991  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Arm3nian View Post
Agreed, I don't know where they get ideas like this from. You get no frame repeats/drops if you use SM. If anything it is cleaner because the video does not have to be slowed down or sped up and the audio is untouched.
SM blends frames, why would you want to blend frames when reclock achieves "perfect sync" without doing that?

SM's main purpose is to eliminate judder on refresh rate mismatch, and does a great job at that.
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Old 16th April 2015, 00:35   #28992  |  Link
Arm3nian
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Originally Posted by agustin9 View Post
SM blends frames, why would you want to blend frames when reclock achieves "perfect sync" without doing that?

SM's main purpose is to eliminate judder on refresh rate mismatch, and does a great job at that.
Did you read any of the previous posts? I already covered advantages and disadvantages.

It was said the ONLY way to get perfect playback is reclock. SM achieves the same goal of reclock. One blends, one speeds up and slows down the video. Neither is perfect playback. As I mentioned, it's not possible to get 100% perfect sync, just subjectively close.
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Old 16th April 2015, 00:39   #28993  |  Link
agustin9
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Originally Posted by Arm3nian View Post
Did you read any of the previous posts? I already covered advantages and disadvantages.

It was said the ONLY way to get perfect playback is reclock. SM achieves the same goal of reclock. One blends, one speeds up and slows down the video. Neither is perfect playback. As I mentioned, it's not possible to get 100% perfect sync, just subjectively close.
Ok, sorry, I agree with that.
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Old 16th April 2015, 00:53   #28994  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by Arm3nian View Post
Can't those users just turn off motion interpolation on their tv? Seems to me there are more people who dislike things like SVP than favor it.
doesn't matter people use it. even if i'm none of them. it's like vivid mode people use stuff like this.
i don't know why people see issue with SM but i don't think they lie. it simple doesn't work for everyone on every display.

Quote:
Agreed, I don't know where they get ideas like this from. You get no frame repeats/drops if you use SM. If anything it is cleaner because the video does not have to be slowed down or sped up and the audio is untouched.
SM kind of changes the speed of the video.
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Old 16th April 2015, 02:05   #28995  |  Link
Arm3nian
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doesn't matter people use it. even if i'm none of them. it's like vivid mode people use stuff like this.
i don't know why people see issue with SM but i don't think they lie. it simple doesn't work for everyone on every display.
Well my original point was that reclock is not required for smooth playback. Madvr can accomplish what reclock does for the video (SM) and the mpcbe audio renderer can accomplish what reclock does as an audio renderer (wasapi and sample rate and bit depth conversion). Reclock was required for these two things in the past, but is not required anymore in most setups. The op wanted to use a 64bit setup so reclock would not work. But he stated SM doesn't work either, not sure why. He has a modern display (4k) and therefore probably has modern hardware.
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Old 16th April 2015, 02:56   #28996  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by Arm3nian View Post
Well my original point was that reclock is not required for smooth playback. Madvr can accomplish what reclock does for the video (SM) and the mpcbe audio renderer can accomplish what reclock does as an audio renderer (wasapi and sample rate and bit depth conversion). Reclock was required for these two things in the past, but is not required anymore in most setups. The op wanted to use a 64bit setup so reclock would not work. But he stated SM doesn't work either, not sure why. He has a modern display (4k) and therefore probably has modern hardware.
you are misunderstanding reclock resampling. MPC-BE audiorenderer can't do the same. simply resampling from 48 khz to 96 khz doesn't matter that's not what reclock makes it so special even the windows mixer can do that with diectsound same for bit deep. you can't do a slow down for pal sources reclock can do that.

reclock is changing the audio speed while SM is changing the video speed choice your own evil.
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Old 16th April 2015, 03:23   #28997  |  Link
Arm3nian
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
you are misunderstanding reclock resampling. MPC-BE audiorenderer can't do the same. simply resampling from 48 khz to 96 khz doesn't matter that's not what reclock makes it so special even the windows mixer can do that with diectsound same for bit deep. you can't do a slow down for pal sources reclock can do that.

reclock is changing the audio speed while SM is changing the video speed choice your own evil.
Dude you posted this earlier today and I replied...

No resampling of audio by a few hz is needed when using SM. The sound is untouched, because the speed of the video playback is untouched. You can use any sample rate 48khz, 96khz, etc, no post processing is needed, the audio syncs with the video.

Adjusting the sample rate is not a feature of reclock, it is a basic requirement to make the program usable. If you speed up the video and leave the audio untouched, there will be sync issues. Reclock resamples the audio to sync it with the video, then adjusts the pitch.

You don't need to slow down a 25fps source to 24fps when using SM... you needed to do this if your monitor did not support a multiple of 25hz but supported a multiple of 24hz. You don't need to worry about that when using SM.

Reclock was used in the past for its main features, but also as a good audio renderer. If you had a track that had 192khz 24bit audio, but your sound card only supported 96khz 16bit, you could not use wasapi and had to go through the garbage bin known as the windows mixer. Now the audio renderers in popular players like mpcbe can downsample if required when used with kernel streaming.

Back to my original point: Madvr can accomplish smooth playback like reclock, and the mpcbe audio renderer can accomplish all of the playback features that reclock had when simply used as an audio renderer.

Last edited by Arm3nian; 16th April 2015 at 03:27.
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Old 16th April 2015, 03:36   #28998  |  Link
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this is my last word about the pal speed issue

http://sandbox.slysoft.com/palspeedup/index.html

madVR SM can't fix this.
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Old 16th April 2015, 04:17   #28999  |  Link
Arm3nian
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this is my last word about the pal speed issue

http://sandbox.slysoft.com/palspeedup/index.html

madVR SM can't fix this.
Read the first sentence in that link. "Issue caused by conversion". SM doesn't convert anything, alter speed of video and audio, or alter pitch. It removes judder caused by mismatch frame rate. SM doesn't care if you are watching 24 or 25fps on a 60hz screen, there are no issues with pitch.

Also to your previous post about plasmas: Plasmas flicker at such a lower refresh rate (24hz). I'd rather have the "supposed" ghosting you said some have mentioned rather than screen flicker.
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Old 16th April 2015, 07:26   #29000  |  Link
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Goddammit, Arm3nian... give up already. You just don't get it.
Go to that link and read it again. All of it!
Then, if you still think that huhn is wrong, read it again. And again, until you realise what he's talking about.
Stop dragging this, it's pointless and off-topic, and it just wastes everyones time, especially madshi's.

Apologies to everyone, I just couldn't stand him anymore... I'll shut up now.
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