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Old 15th October 2018, 20:51   #53261  |  Link
Siso
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Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
Needed? No. Is it beneficial for your content? Maybe. You'll have to compare for yourself. There are no wrong options here.
I read in Warner 306's guide, that the recommended strengths are from 2-8...
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Old 15th October 2018, 21:15   #53262  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Betroz View Post
I am using MPC-HC, and yes of course I have set MadVr as video renderer

....
I just tried it myself, I see no difference at all with your pattern or the standard black clipping mate.

I have to say i'm glad as they should be no difference and I prefer having correct colour space on my desktop.

I guess you just got lucky with your combination of kit and settings, however...

I'm guessing this is your first OLED even though you've had several LG tvs?

My first gen 4k OLED has a less smooth transition at near black for setting brightness levels in that you have to move the brightness slider two notches to increase or decrease the brightness, this makes it a bit notchy for setting black clipping. This doesnt affect how it shows these elements, just how you setup the TV.

This was fixed in the next model E6, so it could be I just cant get that notch that you can.

on my black clipping pattern I prefer flashing 18 and above rather than 16/17 as this can produce raised blacks for me, this could be the issue.

for me though this is an advanage as it means there is no difference so I can stick with using HIGH and have the correct desktop colour space.
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Old 15th October 2018, 22:17   #53263  |  Link
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Originally Posted by VoodooNBGD View Post
Does someone know if chroma upscaling in madVR works in one or two steps, when presentation resolution is larger than luma plane resolution?
It first brings chroma to luma resolution. There's a (simplified) rendering path flowchart in this post: https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.p...14#post1709814
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Old 15th October 2018, 22:37   #53264  |  Link
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Originally Posted by mclingo View Post
I just tried it myself, I see no difference at all with your pattern or the standard black clipping mate.

I have to say i'm glad as they should be no difference and I prefer having correct colour space on my desktop.

I guess you just got lucky with your combination of kit and settings, however...

I'm guessing this is your first OLED even though you've had several LG tvs?

My first gen 4k OLED has a less smooth transition at near black for setting brightness levels in that you have to move the brightness slider two notches to increase or decrease the brightness, this makes it a bit notchy for setting black clipping. This doesnt affect how it shows these elements, just how you setup the TV.

This was fixed in the next model E6, so it could be I just cant get that notch that you can.

on my black clipping pattern I prefer flashing 18 and above rather than 16/17 as this can produce raised blacks for me, this could be the issue.

for me though this is an advanage as it means there is no difference so I can stick with using HIGH and have the correct desktop colour space.
If the lowest shade above black you see is bar 18 then you won't see what I'm talking about. From what I remember with the older OLEDs is there was no way to get 0.5% to show without raising the black level.

The first visible square in the pattern is equal to bar 17 (0.5%). This is crushed with brightness at default 50 and a full RGB chain. This square is visible with brightness at default 50 and limited>full>limited. As is per my experience with the first C7 I had which I exchanged for this one, and also a plasma a couple other LCDs.
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Old 15th October 2018, 22:53   #53265  |  Link
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Something is lost in translation when going from HDR -> SDR.

If the target nits is higher than the display's actual brightness, you are only getting a ratio of the original curve.

Example: 480 target nits shown at 200 actual nits

480 nits is the lowest value of BT.2390 where the soft knee (where compression begins) is above reference white (100 nits). Lower values will place the soft knee lower and lower and compress at least some of the first 100 nits. The lower the target nits, the more reference white is compressed...
Yes, you are right, I mixed up the comp monitor's results with my 500 nits SDR TV that indeed follows the original PQ curve up to 50% (but the roll-off is still very abrupt and is still clipped in 80-100% range, only when I select Master MaxL in HCFR to 10000 nits does the BT.2390 reference that HCFR underlays follow the MadVR roll-off more closely -still trying to get my head around this...this could well be a HCFR settings problem...

MadVR puts the diffuse white at about 80 cd/m2 for the said 200 nit monitor. Does this sound as being more in the ballpark?

Last edited by mytbyte; 15th October 2018 at 23:06.
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Old 15th October 2018, 23:13   #53266  |  Link
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Originally Posted by iSeries View Post
If the lowest shade above black you see is bar 18 ....s.
ok, i'm going to change my mind on this, I can see a difference, I wasnt giving my eyes enough time to adjust in between changing the settings.

on LOW I can see all but the top corner two blocks far left, on high I cant quite see the top 3 blocks, I can barely see the 3rd one down but its there.

Not sure this is enough of a difference for the exta hassle of having a crushed desktop though.

But you are correct nonetheless, this is very interesting.

I think i'd have to see a real world difference to bother changing my setup.
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Old 16th October 2018, 01:59   #53267  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Siso View Post
I read in Warner 306's guide, that the recommended strengths are from 2-8...
Screenshot. Watch in motion. Decide for yourself, blindly setting options based on recommendations is not how I prefer to do things.
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Old 16th October 2018, 07:31   #53268  |  Link
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For me I have to set madvr to 16-235, GPU full, and TV low to get the proper levels on my C8. So no, IMO, it has not changed in the 2018 models. Default brightness of 50. I can only claim this to be my experience.
Why would you use 16-235 when you can 0-255 ? I am using FULL on the Nvidia + TV AUTO and MadVR 0-255 , there is a big different in quality when you use 16-235 .. why would you do that.. maybe it depends on the media player ? I don't know. but with Potplayer I just see 16-235 like when the TV can't support it , washed white even on the blackest black on the wide screen black lines that suppose to be blackest black on OLED
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Old 16th October 2018, 07:43   #53269  |  Link
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I'm guessing this is your first OLED even though you've had several LG tvs?
This is my first OLED TV, and my second LG TV. I returned my first LG after I bought it some 7 years ago, and now I am considering doing it again, but for another reason (bad motion performance, ie. stutter).

This is getting a bit off topic I think.
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Old 16th October 2018, 07:45   #53270  |  Link
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Why would you use 16-235 when you can 0-255 ? I am using FULL on the Nvidia + TV AUTO and MadVR 0-255 , there is a big different in quality when you use 16-235 .. why would you do that.. maybe it depends on the media player ? I don't know. but with Potplayer I just see 16-235 like when the TV can't support it , washed white even on the blackest black on the wide screen black lines that suppose to be blackest black on OLED
It depends on the setup I believe. With your TV at auto for black level, it could be possible that it defaults to High anyway.
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Old 16th October 2018, 08:29   #53271  |  Link
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Why would you use 16-235 when you can '0-255 ?
'Cos he has his TV on low black levels (16-235)
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Old 16th October 2018, 09:03   #53272  |  Link
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This thread "crushes my soul".

I have an older LG LCD TV, and if I select any calibration settings it looks crap, if I adjust settings to get good blacks, everything else looks crap.

Life is too short.
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Old 16th October 2018, 09:33   #53273  |  Link
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RIP the black level on most LG OLEDs ~2017 and older. Now back to our usual programming.
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Old 16th October 2018, 15:20   #53274  |  Link
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Why would you use 16-235 when you can 0-255 ? I am using FULL on the Nvidia + TV AUTO and MadVR 0-255 , there is a big different in quality when you use 16-235 .. why would you do that.. maybe it depends on the media player ? I don't know. but with Potplayer I just see 16-235 like when the TV can't support it , washed white even on the blackest black on the wide screen black lines that suppose to be blackest black on OLED
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'Cos he has his TV on low black levels (16-235)
Yup. And it works great for me.
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Old 16th October 2018, 15:56   #53275  |  Link
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Yes, you are right, I mixed up the comp monitor's results with my 500 nits SDR TV that indeed follows the original PQ curve up to 50% (but the roll-off is still very abrupt and is still clipped in 80-100% range, only when I select Master MaxL in HCFR to 10000 nits does the BT.2390 reference that HCFR underlays follow the MadVR roll-off more closely -still trying to get my head around this...this could well be a HCFR settings problem...

MadVR puts the diffuse white at about 80 cd/m2 for the said 200 nit monitor. Does this sound as being more in the ballpark?
Are you using HCFR to calibrate HDR -> SDR? That wouldn't work if you are trying to track BT.2390 because the actual gamma curve is 2.20 or 2.40 pure power gamma.

80 nits sounds too bright for reference white if room was left for specular highlights, but it is difficult to tell for sure because it is unknown where compression begins when the target nits is set to less than 480 nits. And you are still only getting a ratio of the original curve's target nits.
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Old 16th October 2018, 16:17   #53276  |  Link
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Are you using HCFR to calibrate HDR -> SDR? That wouldn't work if you are trying to track BT.2390 because the actual gamma curve is 2.20 or 2.40 pure power gamma.
Can you explain? I'm not using bulit-in patterns but rather R. Masciola's HDR patterns in manual mode although I'd prefer it if MadVR HDR->SDR processing worked with MadTPG.

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Old 16th October 2018, 16:26   #53277  |  Link
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PQ is converted to SDR gamma, so the original BT.2390 curve will be lost. SDR is also relative and not absolute like PQ. You could try calibrating in SDR, but pixel shader changes the gamma curve, so the charts might not look right.

The best you can do is check for black and white clipping. Try these patterns. I would suggest pausing the 8-bit black clipping pattern because it is short. Setting the correct gamma curve in madVR is the most important part of this test.

Even then, once black clipping is set to the correct gamma curve, your eyes will be a better guide as to what looks best. You will lose something in contrast or brightness no matter what you choose.

Last edited by Warner306; 16th October 2018 at 16:28.
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Old 16th October 2018, 16:54   #53278  |  Link
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@Warner: but HDR converted to SDR should result in PQ points when measured with a meter, from HDR patterns run through MadVR and the measured max display's nits entered into madVR, no? In that case it's not relative...I mean, I get almost perfect PQ tracking when I set MadVR curve to "clipping" (that being pure PQ, I suppose) and it looks in no way particularly wrong on screen...of course, converting HDR to SDR loses the precision of PQ (less bits allocated to low end)

Thanks for the link.

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Old 16th October 2018, 16:56   #53279  |  Link
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Maybe. I'd like to see what the charts look like when set to clipping and BT.2390. The curves shouldn't match perfectly because they are different gamma curves. Setting madVR to 2.20 or 2.40 would change the gamma curve. I wouldn't think it would track the PQ curve the same in both instances.

Last edited by Warner306; 16th October 2018 at 17:04.
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Old 16th October 2018, 17:23   #53280  |  Link
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Maybe. I'd like to see what the charts look like when set to clipping and BT.2390. The curves shouldn't match perfectly because they are different gamma curves. Setting madVR to 2.20 or 2.40 would change the gamma curve. I wouldn't think it would track the PQ curve the same in both instances.
If you have control over the TV's gamma and can measure it, I suppose you can choose what fits you tv's response.

I'll try to upload the charts these days, watch this space.
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