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11th October 2011, 02:20   #10061  |  Link
nand chan
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Asmodian From the spec sheet of the X-Rite EyeOne Pro - Enhanced: Short-term repeatability: x,y: +/- 0.002 typical (CRT 5000°K, 80 cd/m2) I am sure it is a great calibration system, certainly better than anything I have access to, but that is a very small difference.
6504K is 0.31271405688264758 / 0.32911909913718723
6500K is 0.3127788761948111 / 0.32918349849804096
D65 is 0.31272661468101209 / 0.32902313032606195 I believe, but don't quote me on this as I have not run the calculations myself and therefore have no guarantee of its accuracy.

So that's a difference of 0.00006481931216352. I guess we will have to make do for now then.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Mark_A_W Primaries: red, Yxy, 5.112, 0.628, 0.337 green, Yxy, 9.018, 0.294, 0.595 blue, Yxy, 1.672, 0.156, 0.078 white, Yxy, 10.833, 0.321, 0.342 Greyscale: 20, Yxy, 0.301, 0.338, 0.349 30, Yxy, 1.179, 0.316, 0.333 40, Yxy, 2.705, 0.311, 0.335 50, Yxy, 5.037, 0.311, 0.340 60, Yxy, 7.476, 0.315, 0.340 70, Yxy, 10.364, 0.320, 0.341 80, Yxy, 10.603, 0.320, 0.341 90, Yxy, 10.749, 0.321, 0.342 100, Yxy, 10.850, 0.321, 0.342
Seems to work fine if I omit the grayscale information. What I'd do in your case is use good software such as ArgyllCMS to calculate the transformation.
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Forget about my old .3dlut stuff, just use mpv if you want accurate color management

Last edited by nand chan; 11th October 2011 at 02:26.

11th October 2011, 02:25   #10062  |  Link
Asmodian
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They are all 0.313 / 0.329 in my book.

EDIT:

Quote:
 20, Yxy, 0.301, 0.338, 0.349
That looks like a very low Y for 20%? Are you sure you didn't copy 0% there?

and only ~10 at 100% seems low as well. Maybe just low total luminance.

Last edited by Asmodian; 11th October 2011 at 02:38.

11th October 2011, 03:06   #10063  |  Link
Mark_A_W
3 eyed CRT supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Or-strayl-ya
Posts: 563
Quote:
 Originally Posted by nand chan Seems to work fine if I omit the grayscale information. What I'd do in your case is use good software such as ArgyllCMS to calculate the transformation.
Ok, I'll look into it, read your guide for a start, thanks.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Asmodian That looks like a very low Y for 20%? Are you sure you didn't copy 0% there? and only ~10 at 100% seems low as well. Maybe just low total luminance.
It is a CRT projector. It behaves differently to a digital. It can do peak white very well, but not a full white field.

Colorfacts can measure with a small field, rather than a full screen (like the HCFR inbuilt stuff). A field suits a CRT projector better.

Subjectively it's as bright as most HT dedicated digital projectors.

As for the 20% being low, again that's a CRT thing. Some people put a bump in their gamma curve to address this, but I found that causes streaking (another CRT thing) on mine.

I can raise the brightness, which will lift 20%, but then black won't be BLACK. I've never seen a digital where black is completely black, always grey.

I can choose to crush a bit of the low end, and have BLACK blacks, or slightly lit blacks (like a digital) and better shadow detail. At least I have a choice

11th October 2011, 04:12   #10064  |  Link
nand chan
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Mark_A_W Ok, I'll look into it, read your guide for a start, thanks.
It's actually not what you want, because in this case your display is already profiled. I have not written any updated guides for handling a properly profiled/pre-calibrated monitor.
__________________
Forget about my old .3dlut stuff, just use mpv if you want accurate color management

11th October 2011, 07:09   #10065  |  Link
6233638
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by THX-UltraII First of all, treat 25fps as 23,976 option in madVR will not work in my setup. This is because I ONLY bitstream and if I am correct this function only works when you let the decoding by done by the HTPC.
With a username like that, dare I ask why you require bitstreaming?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Mark_A_W It is a CRT projector. It behaves differently to a digital. It can do peak white very well, but not a full white field.
CRTs need to be calibrated with 1% area patterns. I don't know of any commercial package which offers these. The EBU mentions this in their documents on measuring reference monitors.

This may make it difficult to measure projectors with lower-end meters though, as they should be taken at a distance of 3 screen heights, and the cheaper meters tend to have a fairly wide angle of acceptance. To be honest though, with projectors I tend to just measure facing the projector itself using a screen offset, as you get much better readings, especially with lower-end meters or spectrophotmeters in general. If you have a completely neutral screen (such as Carada's Brilliant White material—assuming they have not made any changes) the offset may not even be necessary.

Here are the required patterns. (10% steps) http://www.mediafire.com/?9zcr8fvf57glgfz

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Mark_A_W As for the 20% being low, again that's a CRT thing. Some people put a bump in their gamma curve to address this, but I found that causes streaking (another CRT thing) on mine.
When you say streaking, do you mean phosphor trailing? (streaks left behind objects moving over dark areas)

If that is the case, you probably have brightness set too low. CRTs cannot do true black when operating correctly, there is still the need for bias voltage to keep the gun at the proper operating level. Grade 1 reference monitors had a contrast of approximately 10,000:1 when set up for correct operation—worse than the second generation of Kuros, in fact.

I fully appreciate the appeal of true blacks, however. I was completely dissatisfied with the Kuro Monitors' black level for example.

Back when I was a CRT owner—sadly, due to several displays dying on me in the space of a year, the complete lack of a second-hand market for them here, and an impending move, I now have a local-dimmed LCD—I would set my display up for jet black, and then use a VideoEQ to get a flat 2.40 gamma with perfect greyscale. This required a hand-crafted LUT though, with the device only operating in 8-bit there was considerable banding and discolouration introduced near black with their software. In theory it could do 10-bit, but it required a 10-bit input to get 10-bit out and madVR is still sending 8-bit to my TV.

I don't know how well madVR's 3D LUTs would work for this task, you would have to try it. I suspect it would need, at the very least, some tweaking of the input values to help shape the LUT, if not a completely hand-crafted LUT—most LUT generation tools seem to be tailored around digital displays and don't work too well with CRT.

If I recall correctly, I actually found that my CRTs were fairly linear in their response, and it was best to set 20%, 90% and 100% values in the LUT, letting everything else be interpolated. It is critical that the LUT does not end up tapering down from 20% to 0,0,0 however. It should simply continue the slope from 90–20% right down to 1% grey and then 0 should be set at 0,0,0 otherwise there will be significant discolouration.

I actually think that a hand-crafted LUT is probably best in all instances, as you are sometimes better off with minor greyscale/gamma irregularities for the sake of avoiding banding/discolouration near black, or to ensure that all levels remain distinct. Unfortunately, I've still not figured out how to create a hand-crafted LUT for use with madVR yet. (I want to set the output RGB values being sent to the display for specific points, not give it an input and have it calculate what it thinks is best)

I've only recently started using the 3DLUT functionality, but it seems to make a good improvement on my LCD, I just have to stay above 20% to avoid banding problems. I suspect with a hand-crafted LUT this could be better, but I'm able to use my display's controls to fix those issues. (I shift the errors up to the higher end of the greyscale where there aren't any problems making changes)

Quote:
 Originally Posted by nand chan I assume a “professional calibrator” will have access to professional-grade equipment, like \$5000 spectrophotometers.
You would be surprised at the quality of the meters in some kits that cost thousands of dollars, particularly Sencore's kit. Not sure what it's like since they have teamed up with Spectracal though, but for considerably less, you can get better equipment than Sencore were selling a few years ago, for a fraction of the price from Spectracal.

The \$5000 CP-5000 from Sencore was worse than the \$500 Chroma-5 from Spectracal. (a newer OEM version from the same product family)

The \$7000 OTC1000/X-Rite Hubble's only saving grace is that it is a good non-contact meter. Other than the narrow angle of acceptance and laser targeting, it is not a particularly great performer—it's only specced down to 0.034 cd/m˛!

Colorfacts is extremely overpriced software—I can't speak for the latest version (if it's even still around) but I'd actually say you're probably better off with HCFR compared to it. Hell, HCFR still has some features in there that are only offered in one other package that I'm aware of. (RGBCMY saturation & luminance measurements, which were only just introduced in Chromapure earlier this year)

Quote:
 Originally Posted by leeperry which is within the error margin of any colorimeter, let alone the utterly inaccurate HCFR
Do you have any evidence of this?

 11th October 2011, 08:41 #10066  |  Link Mark_A_W 3 eyed CRT supporter   Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Or-strayl-ya Posts: 563 Thanks for the patterns 6233638. They are exactly what is needed. And yes, streaking is phosphor trailing. The NEC with a push-pull neckboard is more prone to it, particularly with a low end gamma bump. Earlier single amp neckboards are basically immune. And a Sony 1292 is completely riddled with streaking, there is a fix for it now, but a 1292 is too old and noisy even for me. I'm pretty happy with my black level. The G2 is set correctly (by me, no trivial task on a NEC), after that it is just a matter of picking your compromises. And one thing, in my experience, CRT monitors can be pretty linear. But CRT projectors are not, particularly NECs. Blue hump, for instance. Still, the image is very nice, and while I would now swap it for a digital, I wouldn't have until very recently (even then only a LCOS/SXRD....if only the affordable ones would do BLACK a bit better!) Mark
11th October 2011, 09:46   #10067  |  Link
6233638
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Mark_A_W And one thing, in my experience, CRT monitors can be pretty linear. But CRT projectors are not, particularly NECs. Blue hump, for instance.
That's true. I found the same with some newer CRT televisions/monitors too. Seems to be that once they got digital processing controlling some aspects, they ruined a lot of what makes an analogue CRT great. (not saying that's the cause of the blue hump though)

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Mark_A_W Still, the image is very nice, and while I would now swap it for a digital, I wouldn't have until very recently (even then only a LCOS/SXRD....if only the affordable ones would do BLACK a bit better!)
Just a word of warning, the motion handling on LCoS/SXRD sucks, even on the latest models, and you will only be happy with the black level on the higher-end JVCs.

It's a shame that CRT is dead. It didn't stand a chance considering the bulk and power inefficiency (although it's only since we've had LED screens that flat panels improve on them, as most people buy a larger set) and what's out there is gradually disappearing, but there's nothing yet that comes close to a good CRT for wonderfully smooth gradation, variable scan rates, inky-deep black levels. There's a certain richness to the image on a good CRT that I've yet to find with a flat panel or other display.

11th October 2011, 10:06   #10068  |  Link
BeNooL
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by leeperry which is within the error margin of any colorimeter, let alone the utterly inaccurate HCFR
After a good laugh reading the original anwser; this was exactly my thoughts too.

11th October 2011, 13:15   #10069  |  Link
leeperry
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by BeNooL After a good laugh reading the original answer; this was exactly my thoughts too.
And tbh, this discussion has nothing to do in the mVR thread. madshi has better things to do than skipping through pages of colorimetry nitpicking when using a crappy non-tristimulus DIY sensor that bases its results off a reference file...that is highly inaccurate in essence(even Michel Lill from the HCFR team says so, I guess he'd know ). And yes, I've owned the HCFR toy and here's what Graeme Gill has to say about it(off the ArgyllCMS manual):
Quote:
 The accuracy of this instrument does not seem to be comparable to the commercial instruments

11th October 2011, 16:22   #10070  |  Link
6233638
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by leeperry And tbh, this discussion has nothing to do in the mVR thread. madshi has better things to do than skipping through pages of colorimetry nitpicking when using a crappy non-tristimulus DIY sensor that bases its results off a reference file...that is highly inaccurate in essence(even Michel Lill from the HCFR team says so, I guess he'd know ). And yes, I've owned the HCFR toy and here's what Graeme Gill has to say about it(off the ArgyllCMS manual):
I'm sorry, I thought you were criticising the software, which works with a range of other meters. The DIY sensor is not something I'd ever consider suitable for calibration.

12th October 2011, 04:46   #10071  |  Link
TheProfosist
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by TheProfosist Im currently having a issue where when i playback on my second monitor using D3D11 for presentation and i enter exclusive mode MPC-HC crashes with the below error: Code: ```Problem signature: Problem Event Name: BEX Application Name: mpc-hc.exe Application Version: 1.5.2.3456 Application Timestamp: 4e29d332 Fault Module Name: madVR.ax Fault Module Version: 0.74.0.0 Fault Module Timestamp: 4e516bc2 Exception Offset: 0003231a Exception Code: c000000d Exception Data: 00000000 OS Version: 6.1.7601.2.1.0.256.1 Locale ID: 1033 Additional Information 1: 0a68 Additional Information 2: 0a6884bbdf5111fa2279f2535a7cd566 Additional Information 3: 749e Additional Information 4: 749e8f106870e5fcdbc114acbc3c00d2``` the other problem that i have is that unless i enter exclusive mode there is a blinking box in the upper right hand corner of the display (which is rather annoying). I am also still having this problem on my laptop. when i try to play a fullscreen video with madVR and MPC-HC. After a few seconds i it crashes and i get this error from windows: Code: ```Problem signature: Problem Event Name: BEX Application Name: mpc-hc.exe Application Version: 1.5.2.3456 Application Timestamp: 4e29d332 Fault Module Name: madVR.ax Fault Module Version: 0.74.0.0 Fault Module Timestamp: 4e516bc2 Exception Offset: 0003231a Exception Code: c000000d Exception Data: 00000000 OS Version: 6.1.7601.2.1.0.256.1 Locale ID: 1033 Additional Information 1: cfd3 Additional Information 2: cfd39af6f2554026609aee2812317e49 Additional Information 3: ba1d Additional Information 4: ba1d1af66b681e7b15d51afc345f34da```
I have found that the flashing box only happens when i disable desktop composition. And never shows up in full screen. The error that i got when i tried to go D3D11 was cannot get back buffer or something like that... I cam up with that in all red txt when madVR was trying to switch to full screen. I only did that once now when trying to switch to fullscreen it just crashes. These problem occur only on my secondary monitor that is hooked up to my secondary card. Neither of these problems occurs when I playback on main monitor.

EDIT: The exact message that comes up is "copying back buffer failed (exclusive mode)"

tested just about everything. is not my card tried 2 other both of different brands and cores. the problem is running D3D11 off on the secondary card when another monitor is considered the main monitor. I tested this by making the second monitor th main one and everything ran perfectly. nor weird flashing box either even with disable desktop composition enabled.

Tested just on my single card. I think the problem lies in D3D11 because with the standard (i believe DX9) I can go fullscreen/exclusive and sill use the second monitor to complete work while watching something. If I enable D3D11 and click onto my fist monitor to do something while watching something in fullscreen/exclusive the video stops rendering but the audio keeps playing.

For an example I have a video playing in D3D11 on my secondary monitor plugged into my main card it working great now since switching to fullscreen my firefox window has become black. If I click on it to use it the video stops rendering until i exit exclusive mode and re-enter it. Is this because of how windows handles DX11? Would this be causing the madVR error that i would be getting if i tried the same thing but using the secondary card?

Last edited by TheProfosist; 12th October 2011 at 05:58.

 12th October 2011, 12:05 #10072  |  Link kostik Registered User   Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 129 Will Alienware M14X handle Madvr? It has: video card: Nvidia 555M gt 3GB CPU : I7 2760QM (2.5-3.5GHZ) memory: 8gb 1600 mhz hard drive : 120 GB SSD Thanks!
12th October 2011, 12:51   #10073  |  Link
golagoda
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by kostik Will Alienware M14X handle Madvr? It has: video card: Nvidia 555M gt 3GB CPU : I7 2760QM (2.5-3.5GHZ) memory: 8gb 1600 mhz hard drive : 120 GB SSD Thanks!
Honestly the fact you needed to ask me me lol

I use madVR with ease on a Nvidia 9500 GT, AMD Athlon II x2 and 4 gigs of 800 MHz RAM, you'll be more than fine.

12th October 2011, 12:52   #10074  |  Link
Mark_A_W
3 eyed CRT supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Or-strayl-ya
Posts: 563
Quote:
 Originally Posted by kostik Will Alienware M14X handle Madvr? It has: video card: Nvidia 555M gt 3GB CPU : I7 2760QM (2.5-3.5GHZ) memory: 8gb 1600 mhz hard drive : 120 GB SSD Thanks!
No chance. You better get something with some grunt.

 12th October 2011, 12:53 #10075  |  Link namaiki Registered User   Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 1,073 Watch out for Optimus.
12th October 2011, 19:06   #10076  |  Link
THX-UltraII
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Posts: 850
Quote:
 It's careful to note here that you can't confuse “calibrated” with “profiled”, or confuse the different types of calibration with eachother.
The projector is calibrated for sure. I payed a lot of money for this and the best of the five oficially ISF clibration professionals here in Holland did the 2 hour calibration.

Quote:
 It sounds like the ISF calibration just fixes the white point to be at precisely 6500K (which is also incorrect, incidentally, but I trust that the “professional” doing your calibration knows this) - I don't know how well and to what standard your gamma is calibrated and I don't know anything at all about your gamut. Do you know if your calibration has performed this additional task and how well? Is there something like a calibration report that he gave you?
I can ask for the calibration report with the company. I ll do that and report back with the info I will get from them.

Quote:
 It sounds like you have at least a “THX Mode” which is supposed to be (in theory) calibrated to 2.2 PPC, D65 and BT.709. Can you confirm how many color “modes” you have, and which one you are using?
The professional that gave my JVC RS25 the calibration set a lot of things to custom in the projector so I m not using one of the standard profiles. He also told me the THX mode is ok but far from perfect.

Can you maybe tell me the specific questions I will need to ask the person who ISF calibrated my JVC RS25?

12th October 2011, 19:13   #10077  |  Link
THX-UltraII
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Quote:
 Just a word of warning, the motion handling on LCoS/SXRD sucks, even on the latest models, and you will only be happy with the black level on the higher-end JVCs.
You are very correct on this one indeed. I m a JVC DILA freak and I owned the RS1, RS10, RS20 and I now have the high-end model RS25. The blacks are the best you can get from a digital projector. There s no pj that can compete with my JVC as for blacks. Another thing about the JVCs is the high native contrast and the lack of the o so irritating iris.

BUT, the thing that JVC really need to work on is the motion handling. Ok, it got better during my model upgradings but it s still not good enough for me. I saw the Sony VW90 with the 240Hz panels a howly cow, that s smooth as butter, wat better than my JVC. The JVC tops the Sony as for absolute black level and the 3D on the VW90 sucks. Saw a preview of the VW95 and that seems like a winner but it will cost 6-7k street price at launch next month.

12th October 2011, 20:33   #10078  |  Link
nand chan
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by THX-UltraII The projector is calibrated for sure. I payed a lot of money for this and the best of the five oficially ISF clibration professionals here in Holland did the 2 hour calibration.
Do note that “calibrated” isn't necessarily better than “profiled”. In general, even the reverse is true - since with a proper profile you have far more flexibility than with a static calibration. Even if you calibrate, you still want to profile for best results.

Quote:
 I can ask for the calibration report with the company. I ll do that and report back with the info I will get from them.
Would be perfect.

Quote:
 The professional that gave my JVC RS25 the calibration set a lot of things to custom in the projector so I m not using one of the standard profiles. He also told me the THX mode is ok but far from perfect.
He's right in saying that.

Quote:
 Can you maybe tell me the specific questions I will need to ask the person who ISF calibrated my JVC RS25?
Okay:

1. Which set of exact primaries is it calibrated to? (I assume the white point is D65)
2. Which exact gamma curve is it calibrated to?
3. Is an ICC profile available for the exact calibration result, or is it perfect enough for this to be negligible?
__________________
Forget about my old .3dlut stuff, just use mpv if you want accurate color management

Last edited by nand chan; 12th October 2011 at 20:37.

 12th October 2011, 21:01 #10079  |  Link THX-UltraII Registered User   Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: the Netherlands Posts: 850 I ll post the calibration results tomorrow I think. Already got an answer from my calibration guy: 1. D6500 REC709 2. Gamma 2.3 3. No ICC profile is made, because it's calibrated as a "normal" Home Theater projector, not as a computer display. It's highly irregular that with an ISF calibration an ICC profile is created, this is normally done with computer displays, or when the projector is setup as computer display. Is this good enough info nand chan
12th October 2011, 22:06   #10080  |  Link
nand chan
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by THX-UltraII I ll post the calibration results tomorrow I think. Already got an answer from my calibration guy: 1. D6500 REC709 2. Gamma 2.3 3. No ICC profile is made, because it's calibrated as a "normal" Home Theater projector, not as a computer display. It's highly irregular that with an ISF calibration an ICC profile is created, this is normally done with computer displays, or when the projector is setup as computer display. Is this good enough info nand chan
Yeah, that's fine. I would have assumed 2.2, but it makes sense to use 2.3 for projectors since that's what the BT.709 spec recommends due to the way movies are overencoded. Either way, the problem now is that madVR outputs a 2.2 PPC, and your projector assumes you input a 2.3 PPC.

Depending on your setup, this can either be a good thing or a bad thing:

1. If your ambient light conditions are perfectly normalized to an ICC reference encoding room setup, it's bad - in this case, you want a perfectly source-linear light level.
2. If your ambient light conditions are average or dimly lit, it's probably the perfect setting. Do you know if he measured your ambient light level during viewing?
3. If your ambient light conditions are very dark to pitch black, it's too low - in this setting you want a curve somewhere around 2.45 to 2.5.

Ideally, you want to perfectly recreate the Trimaster's reference CRT curve, but that's not as easily doable. It depends on your viewing conditions. If in doubt, you can leave his “imperfect” 2.2 -> 2.3 transition (which is actually better in this case, due to, again, overencoding of movies).

His lack of providing an ICC profile baffles me a bit though - they're just as important for video displays as they are for computer displays, since you're using a HTPC to drive your projector which technically makes it a computer display - and an ICC-calculated .3dlut is the only way to get the most out of your viewing experience, especially since it allows you to match gamuts such as xvYCC etc. as well if the need ever arises, without having to pay for an expensive re-calibration.

Ps. How often is he going to update the values? A calibration should be updated at least once a month.
__________________
Forget about my old .3dlut stuff, just use mpv if you want accurate color management

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