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Old 28th November 2016, 13:09   #40881  |  Link
tFWo
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Well, madVR is in danger of literally going MAD and developing a split personality.

On one hand we have things like the profile system that lets power users configure everything to their liking.

On the other there is the need to streamline/simplify options for normal users.

Every piece of software in the history of the universe has failed at balancing these two hands. Unfortunately I can see the same thing happening to madVR. Power users end up disappointed with the lack of options (compared to the earlier builds) and normal users never have enough knowledge to not be confused with the remaining options. It has all happened zillion times before.

Limiting the choices for downscaling after image doubling is a great example of this problem. You are taking away the choice from the power user AND you are making your own profile system less useful. If the end goal is completely removing the profile system, then I can understand this. But I don't recall you mentioning it.

On the other side I doubt that the normal user is less confused with this new option. You still have a downscale option in the upscaling/doubling section. Without a proper explanation (tooltip?) the normal user still has no idea what that thing does.

As others have already suggested a simple "downscale quality: use image downscaling settings instead" would fix this for the power user. For the normal user I am afraid that only a complete settings UI overhaul will make things less confusing.

P.S. sxbr should stay! Itís still the performance/quality ratio king for slower cards (havenít tried new ngu low yet)
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Old 28th November 2016, 13:19   #40882  |  Link
StinDaWg
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Is there such a thing as a "normal" user in regards to madVR though? No one I know in real life has ever used or has a clue what madVR is.

I'm not sure why the new shift to catering towards "normal" users is for. madVR is only used by super nerdy videophiles. And super nerdy videophiles want to customize everything.
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Old 28th November 2016, 13:26   #40883  |  Link
flossy_cake
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
With video the situation is different. The position of the car is already defined by the recorded video.
Game physics usually decoupled from the rendering so the car moves the same amount as it does in 2d video. The scenario you describe is like the whole physics engine slowing down to match the render rate which is extremely rare to find a game like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
No, 35ms vs 42ms is not perfectly smooth at all. It might be smooth with a game but not with a video.
I can repeatably witness it smooth with my own eyes. I cannot deny my own senses otherwise I'd have to be radically sceptical about everything. Do you believe it when people witness smooth motion on the variable gsync framerate demos such as the windmill/pendulum demo or do you think they are all just stupid and just can't detect judder? Because that is one hell of a conspiracy if you believe it. Gsync is for people who are allergic to judder, it's the complete opposite of everything you are making it out to be. It's the solution, not the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
And if you do prerender 3 frames in advance and present them in advance with G-SYNC, at which exact interval are they displayed on screen?
Maybe you could tell me because MadVR is producing 50fps gsync on my European video files in full screen mode.

My guess is that your code already implements an accurate timer of some sort or the display driver is taking care of it somehow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e-t172 View Post
otherwise it's going to jitter like crazy and the slightest delay in madVR presentation thread scheduling is going to result in a visible hiccup.
I find it offensive to even use jitter and gsync in the same sentence

Quote:
Originally Posted by e-t172 View Post
This is a software timer that relies on a user-mode software thread to be woken up at precisely the right time.
Which is not a viable option in a non-realtime OS such as Windows.
Quote:
Originally Posted by e-t172 View Post
The frame interval needs to be managed purely in hardware (i.e. the GPU, like in fixed VSync) to achieve high-quality playback. This is the only way to guarantee high precision of frame presentation times.
Apparently the Windows high precision timer uses a dedicated hardware clock called HPET.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_P...on_Event_Timer
You may need to enable it at the windows command line with the "bcdedit /set useplatformclock true" command.

Last edited by flossy_cake; 28th November 2016 at 13:46.
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Old 28th November 2016, 13:27   #40884  |  Link
FreeFall
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Just another vote in favor of giving advanced users back control of the upscaling / downscaling and chroma settings used with image doubling.

Cheers.
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Old 28th November 2016, 13:31   #40885  |  Link
mueslibrown
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tFWo View Post
Well, madVR is in danger of literally going MAD and developing a split personality.

On one hand we have things like the profile system that lets power users configure everything to their liking.

On the other there is the need to streamline/simplify options for normal users.

Every piece of software in the history of the universe has failed at balancing these two hands. Unfortunately I can see the same thing happening to madVR. Power users end up disappointed with the lack of options (compared to the earlier builds) and normal users never have enough knowledge to not be confused with the remaining options. It has all happened zillion times before.

Limiting the choices for downscaling after image doubling is a great example of this problem. You are taking away the choice from the power user AND you are making your own profile system less useful. If the end goal is completely removing the profile system, then I can understand this. But I don't recall you mentioning it.

On the other side I doubt that the normal user is less confused with this new option. You still have a downscale option in the upscaling/doubling section. Without a proper explanation (tooltip?) the normal user still has no idea what that thing does.

As others have already suggested a simple "downscale quality: use image downscaling settings instead" would fix this for the power user. For the normal user I am afraid that only a complete settings UI overhaul will make things less confusing.

P.S. sxbr should stay! Itís still the performance/quality ratio king for slower cards (havenít tried new ngu low yet)
Tend to agree (full disclosure I'm not a software developer nor a UI specialist) ... without knowing madshi's timeline for v1.0 release or what features/functionality comprise that event, I'd be inclined to continue catering to the power users after all they are going to provide the best critique of features and the most difficult to please (as most geeks are ...). The normal user and I include myself here will have to muddle through for now. At a later stage changes to the UI and providing a wizard or relevant presets could be layered on for the 'joe public' user - assuming madshi is going mainstream as thats where the actual money will be ... Just my uninformed view.
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Old 28th November 2016, 13:32   #40886  |  Link
aufkrawall
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Have to agree with twfo. I finely tuned everything with different profiles for every scaling factor, and now that kind of control is simply not possible anymore.
If we have to make a clean cut, then I'd vote for making the UI even simpler by deleting lots more of it. But then on the other hand, we need complete commandline/script control for advanced users, still offering every possible configuration. Otherwise, imho we end up with something just crippled.

I haven't tested yet if new NGU low is a good replacement for s-xbr. Dunno if low + low quadrupling is even possible atm. Can test at home later.
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Old 28th November 2016, 13:35   #40887  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post
I'm not sure why the new shift to catering towards "normal" users is for. madVR is only used by super nerdy videophiles. And super nerdy videophiles want to customize everything.
Because even super nerdy videophiles can shoot themselves in the foot, as evidenced by (among other things) people either forgetting to disable NGU chroma doubling or disabling it but using an expensive algorithm for image upscaling.

I'm not saying the new system is perfect (I haven't played with it yet), but I can understand the desire for clarity and reducing the amount of useless combinations.
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Old 28th November 2016, 13:37   #40888  |  Link
leeperry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
"chroma quality: automatic" chooses Bicubic60 AR for doubling chroma, except when using NNEDI3-128/256 or NGU-VeryHigh. In that case NNEDI3-16 respectively NGU-Med is used instead.
Well, I'd like to use Jinc AR for chroma if I have chroma NGU disabled and prefer to beef up luma NGU.....Not possible anymore either? But you said that NGU-low is just as fast as Jinc so I'll have a go at all this ASAP
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Old 28th November 2016, 13:41   #40889  |  Link
GCRaistlin
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I think that GUI should suggest good decisions in some way but definitely not prevent an user to make his/her own ones, even if they seem to be incorrect.
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Old 28th November 2016, 13:44   #40890  |  Link
paranoya7
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v0.91.3 and v0.91.2 cant find any scaling algorithms now. "These settings are unknown to this version of the settings browser." What is that problem and what should i do? v0.91.1 setting come back.
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Old 28th November 2016, 13:52   #40891  |  Link
FreeFall
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paranoya7,

Try re-installing madVR and then run the restore default settings.bat file and see if that fixes the problem.
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Old 28th November 2016, 13:54   #40892  |  Link
burfadel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HillieSan View Post
I have only DXD11 presentation and V-sync enabled. You can also enable exclusive full screen mode. I disabled all 'quality for perfomance' options (may not be necessary). I use DVXA copy-back or none in LAV Video. DXVA native was buggy.

I had instability problems after updating madVR, and I had to run 'install.bat' (in admin mode) once after every update of madVR.
Really? Sounds like in some respects yours is as bad as mine. My old R9-280X can handle these settings and NGU, the RX 480 definitely should! I do tweak it for quality that I like.

You definitely should not have to have anything under the performance options enabled, and be able to use NGU, DX11 dither, image enhancements such as thin edges, enhance detail, adaptive sharpen, anti-ringing, add grain (under upscaling refinement), and smooth motion on the 480 since a 280X can handle it fine!

It's not so much performance now (massively improved but still not ideal in v0.91.3, its the instability. Everything else works fine .
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Old 28th November 2016, 14:16   #40893  |  Link
jkauff
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@madshi, I've been testing 0.91.3 this morning, and just like with 0.91.1, I can use higher settings with D3D9 than with D3D11 enabled.

GPU is GTX 1060 6GB running on Win 10 build 1607.

Doesn't bother me to use D3D9, but I'm curious why the performance difference?


EDIT: I'm a UX Designer, and I think the changes you've made to the Settings UI are very good and quite well thought out. If you wanted, you could even add an "Easy" mode for beginners, with an Image Enhancement page with only Low, Medium, High, and Very High choices. The defaults are that good (assuming use of NGU).

Last edited by jkauff; 28th November 2016 at 14:41.
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Old 28th November 2016, 14:25   #40894  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flossy_cake View Post
I can repeatably witness it smooth with my own eyes. I cannot deny my own senses otherwise I'd have to be radically sceptical about everything. Do you believe it when people witness smooth motion on the variable gsync framerate demos such as the windmill/pendulum demo or do you think they are all just stupid and just can't detect judder? Because that is one hell of a conspiracy if you believe it. Gsync is for people who are allergic to judder, it's the complete opposite of everything you are making it out to be. It's the solution, not the problem
You are once again and repeatedly ignoring the fact that those demos are rendered in real-time, they are not recorded videos.
Videos do not work like real-time rendered 3d scenes, which is the entire point several of us have been trying to bring across to you for several posts.

If a video was recoded at 24p, then its frames are exactly 41.6ms apart. Exactly that. No other interval is acceptable. Not 40ms, and not 43ms, and certainly not 35 or 50ms.

G-SYNC and FreeSync are awesome for 3D rendering in games and the like, the increase in smoothness is extremely noticeable. I have a screen myself. However, video playback is not a 3d game - that is the entire and only point everyone has been trying to make.
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Last edited by nevcairiel; 28th November 2016 at 14:30.
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Old 28th November 2016, 14:38   #40895  |  Link
Backflash
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Well, I'd like to use Jinc AR for chroma if I have chroma NGU disabled and prefer to beef up luma NGU.....Not possible anymore either? But you said that NGU-low is just as fast as Jinc so I'll have a go at all this ASAP
Chroma setting are in chroma upscaling and you can set jinc there no problem.
chroma that is in image upscaling is for double chroma

I will say this again, it took me a while to understand as well.

The only thing that changed is doubling settings, now it's simply condenced in one menu,, and they haven't changed that much you still have same options there as before.
LL for SSIM is one of two things you can't set for double resolution downscaling.
And other thing is superxbr in doubling. No idea why would we need xbr for doubling anymore with new low for NGU though, maybe didn't test enough SD sources.
There is still a lot of confusion how to adjust other settings for NGU, because it conflicts with a lot of refinements and people think that it's worse than tested algorithms when it's in the very least it's equal PQ wise if set up properly.
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Old 28th November 2016, 14:42   #40896  |  Link
pose
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madshi, some really needed changes with the new build! I like the new interface a lot! NGU works smoother on my RX470 now.
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Old 28th November 2016, 14:50   #40897  |  Link
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I also like the new GUI way more.
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Old 28th November 2016, 14:50   #40898  |  Link
aufkrawall
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Uff, it's impossible now to do any kind of NGU quadrupling with 2x the same NGU settings.
I can't test quality like this, this is really bad.
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Old 28th November 2016, 15:02   #40899  |  Link
Backflash
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Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
Uff, it's impossible now to do any kind of NGU quadrupling with 2x the same NGU settings.
I can't test quality like this, this is really bad.
Wait, it didn't work in previous builds anyway, because it's not finished as far as I remember, and you still can do that for NNDI3.
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Old 28th November 2016, 15:04   #40900  |  Link
flossy_cake
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
G-SYNC and FreeSync are awesome for 3D rendering in games and the like, the increase in smoothness is extremely noticeable. I have a screen myself. However, video playback is not a 3d game - that is the entire and only point everyone has been trying to make.
I see no reason why it should make a difference, both ways we are just presenting a final 2D raster at a certain time interval.

I'm out of this thread because it's giving me cancer. Bye.
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