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Old 13th April 2018, 19:26   #50221  |  Link
mindz
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Noob question. If a display is not 4:4:4 capable, but all signals that are transmitted in either 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 needs to be upsampled by the display to 4:4:4 and then to RGB, how is a display not capable of 4:4:4 able to upsample the signal to ycbcr 4:4:4 and then to RGB?
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Old 13th April 2018, 19:35   #50222  |  Link
huhn
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nearly "every" display is able to accept 4:4:4 and even RGB.
but for i guess performance reasons they always do a down conversation to 4.2:2 or even 4:2:0 and need specail settings to not do that or are incapable of it.

so the reason is processing and the we don't care attitude of TV engineers.
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Old 13th April 2018, 19:35   #50223  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mindz View Post
Noob question. If a display is not 4:4:4 capable, but all signals that are transmitted in either 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 needs to be upsampled by the display to 4:4:4 and then to RGB, how is a display not capable of 4:4:4 able to upsample the signal to ycbcr 4:4:4 and then to RGB?
Usually the limitation comes from a image processing chip that only supports 4:2:2 somewhere in the pipeline. Every TV obviously needs to be able to convert to RGB, because thats what the panels actually display.
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Old 13th April 2018, 19:55   #50224  |  Link
mclingo
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think i'm getting somewhere with this, I just installed a really ancient AMD driver and it fixed it (16.8.1 however before you all tell me its a driver issue, I installed my current driver again and it was still fixed on 18.2.2 which was previously broken, so its driver related but that isnt the full story, could be a driver version had broken something in my setup which the older driver fixed. Colours are now totally fine with calibration off IN MADVR, still dont understand why EVR renderer was outputting correct colours and MADVR not though.

there is a caveat to this though, I tried this driver before and it didnt fix it, however I was using an RX550 then, ive recently upgraded to a an RX460 which is an older generation but faster card.

Last edited by mclingo; 13th April 2018 at 20:05.
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Old 13th April 2018, 20:28   #50225  |  Link
theDongerr
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Aloha forum, I have just begun experimenting with HDR->SDR conversion via MadVR and was looking for some pointers to improve performance.

I have been using MadVR for a couple years now in order to scale 1:1 Blu-Ray Rips from 1080p -> 4K and recently have forced all 1080p content to be displayed as 4k60 + MadVR Smooth Motion.

I love the way this looks and honestly could be content with what I am seeing for a long time.

However I am also very interested in playing UHD backups using HDR->SDR conversion. After numerous hours of tinkering with jRiver+Madvr, I finally was able to playback UHD demos at 4k60p RGB 4:4:4 8-bit and the picture. looks. stunning!

It was not easy getting this to work without stutter/choppiness. I had to first disable 'reduce banding effects' and 'reduce ringing effects' in Processing -> Artifact Removal.

Also, the highest setting I could make work in chroma upscaling is "Sharp NGU Low".

I also setup a profile so that if my source material is 4k60p, smooth motion is off. However, and I haven't tested this yet, I would like to use smooth motion with 4k24p material that is played back at 60p... which I'm not sure is doable.

Lastly, and I think this may have a negligible effect. I disable any type of deinterlacing features from Processing->Deinterlacing.

I am currently using a Nvidia GTX 1080 with latest drivers and with the above settings, I can get my render time under 16ms which is enough for stutter-free playback.

Is there anything else that I am missing here or any way I can get better performance out of my GTX 1080? Is NGU Low to resource intensive? Do I need to upgrade to a GTX 1080 Ti?

I'm planning on spending more time experimenting with settings tonight and would appreciate any tips to reduce render time. Also, how can I expand the 'average stats' item on the OSD to show all the processes contributing to my render time?
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Old 13th April 2018, 21:04   #50226  |  Link
Asmodian
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I can use NGU high chroma upscaling, a 3DLUT, smooth motion, and HDR -> SDR when watching UHD on a 4K display. NGU medium chroma upscaling if I want lots of headroom. I do have a Titan XP but I have enough headroom that I would expect NGU low chroma upscaling to run well on a 1080. Actually I would have thought even NGU medium would work.

Are you using D3D11 with present a frame for every v-sync enabled? Try it with and without present a frame for every v-sync.
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Last edited by Asmodian; 13th April 2018 at 21:07.
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Old 13th April 2018, 21:34   #50227  |  Link
theDongerr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
I can use NGU high chroma upscaling, a 3DLUT, smooth motion, and HDR -> SDR when watching UHD on a 4K display. NGU medium chroma upscaling if I want lots of headroom. I do have a Titan XP but I have enough headroom that I would expect NGU low chroma upscaling to run well on a 1080. Actually I would have thought even NGU medium would work.

Are you using D3D11 with present a frame for every v-sync enabled? Try it with and without present a frame for every v-sync.
I also thought that the GTX1080 should be pretty adequate for what I'm trying to do. I'm about to power on all my equipment and give that D3D11 toggle a shot.

A million thankyous!!
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Old 13th April 2018, 22:09   #50228  |  Link
theDongerr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
I can use NGU high chroma upscaling, a 3DLUT, smooth motion, and HDR -> SDR when watching UHD on a 4K display. NGU medium chroma upscaling if I want lots of headroom. I do have a Titan XP but I have enough headroom that I would expect NGU low chroma upscaling to run well on a 1080. Actually I would have thought even NGU medium would work.

Are you using D3D11 with present a frame for every v-sync enabled? Try it with and without present a frame for every v-sync.
Toggling the option you mentioned does not affect my render time. I am noticing dropped frames though, which seems odd if I'm not doing any scaling. Here is a shot of my OSD, maybe you can see something that I don't?
Name:  Screen Shot 2018-04-13 at 4.04.58 PM.jpg
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https://postimg.cc/image/630ay9qrb/
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Old 13th April 2018, 22:25   #50229  |  Link
Warner306
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The movie frame rate is 60 fps. That is a very difficult video to render quickly. That's why your stats are suffering.

Almost all UHD movies (not demos) are 24 fps, so you should be able to crank up your settings considerably with real program material until rendering times are 35-37ms, not 16ms.
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Old 13th April 2018, 22:30   #50230  |  Link
Warner306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mindz View Post
Noob question. If a display is not 4:4:4 capable, but all signals that are transmitted in either 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 needs to be upsampled by the display to 4:4:4 and then to RGB, how is a display not capable of 4:4:4 able to upsample the signal to ycbcr 4:4:4 and then to RGB?
I don't know how your display gets from 4:2:2 to RGB, but this helped me understand it: https://www.intersil.com/content/dam...n97/an9717.pdf.

Unless this is the last step in the display's processing, many displays can't keep the signal at 4:4:4 from input to output and have to downconvert to 4:2:2 to save bandwidth.
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Old 13th April 2018, 22:46   #50231  |  Link
huhn
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are you running some image enhancements.
upscaling chroma and HDR->SDR is not the type of a killer.

and check your GPU power settings.
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Old 13th April 2018, 23:08   #50232  |  Link
Warner306
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This link is also helpful in showing the damage done by lowering the chroma to 4:2:2 before reconstructing it: https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.p...15#post1614315.
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Old 14th April 2018, 01:20   #50233  |  Link
Asmodian
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Originally Posted by theDongerr View Post
Toggling the option you mentioned does not affect my render time. I am noticing dropped frames though, which seems odd if I'm not doing any scaling.
I agree with Warner306, 15.5ms is too slow for a 16.68ms frame time. Try to get your rendering times below ~14ms.

Exactly how much extra time you need seems to be somewhat system dependent. I have been fine with 1ms extra or needed 5ms extra with different configurations.

Have you tried DX9? Always try every mode available.
I have had DX9 Overlay help with using every last bit of GPU power in the past, it uses a fast low level hardware "present".

Edit: Do not pay too much attention to the exact rendering times reported by madVR. They are estimates and different options may allow higher or lower reported average rendering times without dropped frames. I would never expect the D3D11 present frame every v-sync option to change the reported rendering time but it can change the number of presentation glitches or dropped frames.
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Last edited by Asmodian; 14th April 2018 at 01:27.
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Old 14th April 2018, 01:49   #50234  |  Link
ryrynz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theDongerr View Post
Also, the highest setting I could make work in chroma upscaling is "Sharp NGU Low".
NGU is quite demanding for chroma for UHD to HD and based on the minimal differences I saw with chroma in this situation I personally have this set to JINC with no AR on my 1060. Give it a shot.

Last edited by ryrynz; 14th April 2018 at 08:21.
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Old 14th April 2018, 05:01   #50235  |  Link
theDongerr
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
The movie frame rate is 60 fps. That is a very difficult video to render quickly. That's why your stats are suffering.

Almost all UHD movies (not demos) are 24 fps, so you should be able to crank up your settings considerably with real program material until rendering times are 35-37ms, not 16ms.
I want to convert any 24 fps material to 60 fps and utilize smooth motion. I really enjoy this presentation when scaling 1080p24 -> 2160p60 + Smooth motion. My display doesn't handle native 24fps very well in my opinion. MadVR fixes that for me without any SOE effect.

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are you running some image enhancements.
upscaling chroma and HDR->SDR is not the type of a killer.

and check your GPU power settings.
I am not running any other image enhancements. All 'trade quality for performance' is unchecked as well except for 'dont render fade in/out'

Do I check GPU power settings in the BIOS? Is there a number I should looking/aiming for?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
I agree with Warner306, 15.5ms is too slow for a 16.68ms frame time. Try to get your rendering times below ~14ms.

Have you tried DX9? Always try every mode available.
I have had DX9 Overlay help with using every last bit of GPU power in the past, it uses a fast low level hardware "present".
To try DX9 do I just uncheck the 'use Direct3D 11 for presentation' ? I am going to spend some time toggling these options in the morning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
NGU is quite demanding for chroma for UHD to SD and based on the minimal differencesi saw with chroma in this situation I personally have this set to JINC with no AR on my 1060. Give it a shot.
Worth a shot!! Thanks!!
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Old 14th April 2018, 08:14   #50236  |  Link
Asmodian
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Originally Posted by theDongerr View Post
To try DX9 do I just uncheck the 'use Direct3D 11 for presentation' ? I am going to spend some time toggling these options in the morning.
Yes, DX9 is the non-D3D11 default. Overlay is the one that is the most different but definitely play with them.
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Old 14th April 2018, 15:25   #50237  |  Link
zaemon
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madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

Does anyone have any trick for the GPU driver rejected this mode for no reason ? I can use custom modes with UHD resolution but not with 4K resolution. Every custom mode in 4K is rejected. And I really want to keep using 4K resolution as I have a native 4K projector (very useful with 2:35 sources with auto black bar cropping).

Without custom mode in 4K, I have 1 frame repeat every 4 minutes and I really see the difference (compared to UHD custom mode: 1 frame repeat every 1-2h).
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Old 14th April 2018, 16:38   #50238  |  Link
Warner306
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Originally Posted by zaemon View Post
Does anyone have any trick for the GPU driver rejected this mode for no reason ? I can use custom modes with UHD resolution but not with 4K resolution. Every custom mode in 4K is rejected. And I really want to keep using 4K resolution as I have a native 4K projector (very useful with 2:35 sources with auto black bar cropping).

Without custom mode in 4K, I have 1 frame repeat every 4 minutes and I really see the difference (compared to UHD custom mode: 1 frame repeat every 1-2h).
The only solution I found to this problem was a clean install of the drivers. Be warned that this might not fix anything, but it is likely all you can do if the optimizations have been calculated correctly. Perhaps, start over and play the video a little longer to make sure the optimizations were calculated correctly? Also, avoid the "reset GPU" feature. If you did this, then definitely reinstall the drivers. That was part of my problem.

Last edited by Warner306; 14th April 2018 at 17:38.
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Old 14th April 2018, 16:48   #50239  |  Link
Warner306
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Originally Posted by theDongerr View Post
I want to convert any 24 fps material to 60 fps and utilize smooth motion. I really enjoy this presentation when scaling 1080p24 -> 2160p60 + Smooth motion. My display doesn't handle native 24fps very well in my opinion. MadVR fixes that for me without any SOE effect.
There is a difference between the frame rate of the video and the refresh rate of the display. madVR does not convert a 24 fps source to 60 fps; it feeds it to the display with 3/2 pulldown, so it is still rendering a 24 fps image.

The 60 fps video is native 60 fps. That is your problem. A new frame is drawn every 16.68ms, so your render times have to be very fast. If you took a native 24 fps source (like most real UHD material), a new frame is drawn every 41.71ms, so your total render times could be as high as 35-37ms, which is much higher than 16.68ms. This gives you more headroom for more demanding settings.

If you are using Error Diffusion dithering with 4K content, switch to Ordered. This can eat up a lot of performance for little gain; especially, if you are outputting at 10-bits from madVR.
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Old 14th April 2018, 16:51   #50240  |  Link
asagala
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2160p60 vs 2160p59

My madVR setup runs perfectly. NGU Sharp,etc... thanks to many of you on this forum.

However, I do have a question concerning refresh rate switching. Should I have both 2160p59 and 2160p60 configured in madVR or only one of the two? I currently have both and it seems that its always 2160p59 that is being used.
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