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Old 15th May 2015, 21:31   #30081  |  Link
mogli
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Small bug report:

Most movies finish without any drop or glitch. However since v0.88.x with D3D11 activated (and frame for every VSync off) very rarely randomly in a movie drops and glitches start to occur at about 20 per second (both per OSD and visible on screen). This happens only in FSE mode and doesn't stop by itself but only by switching to windowed mode once and back to FSE. It seems to occur more often with some interlaced NTSC DVDs then with 24p BDs but it isn't reproducible.
I guess some rare conditions can drive the D3D11 logic nuts.

Windows 8.1 x64, NVIDIA 350.12
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Old 15th May 2015, 21:33   #30082  |  Link
luk008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Can't reproduce that on my AMD HD7770 in Windows 8.1 x64. Have you tried resetting madVR to default settings? Also try rebooting, just to be safe.
I've reboot and resetted madVR to default settings, but still the same problem.
Maybe a driver issue? Are you using 15.4 as well?

PS: How can I print the screen in FSE to show you the issue?
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Old 15th May 2015, 21:36   #30083  |  Link
XMonarchY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Ok, let's do some more tests:

1) Leave all your settings just as they are, but rename one of the 3dlut files to something else (e.g. add "dummy" to the file name). madVR should then complain about the missing file. If you do this with a Rect.601 video file, then which file do you have to remain to make madVR complain?

2) If you toggle through the primaries (Ctrl+Alt+Shift+P), does that make madVR load the correct 3dlut?
OK I solved the problem. My content was actually labeled SMPTE 170M, not SMPTE C. When I toggled to SMPTE C using ctrl+alt+shift+p command, My Rec.601 3DLUT in SMPTE C line was used properly. The problem was that SMPTE 170M aws not detected as SMPTE C, even though ctrl+j menu reported that my SMPTE 170M content had "matrix BT.601". Its all a bit confusing...

Do you think you could add SMPTE 170M standard support for SMPTE C line or make an extra line for SMPTE 170M? AFAIK SMPTE C is the color gamut that uses Rec.601 primaries, while SMPTE 170M is the actual standard, not just the color gamut name. I mean its no big deal really, since I can toggle now.
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Last edited by XMonarchY; 15th May 2015 at 22:08.
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Old 15th May 2015, 21:39   #30084  |  Link
MysteryX
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Since SuperRes is being applied after resizing, shouldn't it have a similar performance hit no matter whether the source material is 288p or 480p?

For 288p material, SuperRes 2 pass causes rendering time to go from 6.2 to 11.9ms on 768p display

For 480p material, same setting causes rendering time to go from 9.3 to 20.2ms!

480p Normal


480p SuperRes


Output resolution is exactly the same.

Last edited by MysteryX; 24th June 2015 at 06:10.
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Old 15th May 2015, 21:43   #30085  |  Link
MysteryX
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Btw, is AMD driver 15.4 good? For Radeon HD 7670M, the best driver I found is LeeKM's modded driver v12.200 BETA. It is more stable than any other driver I tried, and whenever I try any other set of driver, I get worse performance so I always revert back to that one (which isn't available for download anymore). And apparently the late 13.x drivers work best for madVR.

Is 15.4 any faster or better than the 14.x or 13.x series?

Last edited by MysteryX; 24th June 2015 at 06:10.
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Old 15th May 2015, 21:45   #30086  |  Link
luk008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysteryX View Post
Is 15.4 any faster or better than the 14.x or 13.x series?
15.4 is faster than 14.12. But I haven't tested 13.x or 12.x
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Old 15th May 2015, 21:57   #30087  |  Link
cyberscott
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Just tried 88.8. Previous to this version, the original debanding was beating out Shiandow deband script, even with the clear improvements since its' introduction into madVR
I can now say that Shiandow deband script included in 88.8 has now edged out madVR's deband to my eyes using Power 0.50 and Margin 0.02.
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Old 15th May 2015, 21:59   #30088  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogli View Post
Small bug report:

Most movies finish without any drop or glitch. However since v0.88.x with D3D11 activated (and frame for every VSync off) very rarely randomly in a movie drops and glitches start to occur at about 20 per second (both per OSD and visible on screen). This happens only in FSE mode and doesn't stop by itself but only by switching to windowed mode once and back to FSE. It seems to occur more often with some interlaced NTSC DVDs then with 24p BDs but it isn't reproducible.
I guess some rare conditions can drive the D3D11 logic nuts.

Windows 8.1 x64, NVIDIA 350.12
I suppose you've unchecked the option "present a frame for every VSync"? This option is enabled by default. Re-enable it, and the problem will probably go away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by luk008 View Post
I've reboot and resetted madVR to default settings, but still the same problem.
Maybe a driver issue? Are you using 15.4 as well?

PS: How can I print the screen in FSE to show you the issue?
I don't know which driver version I'm using, it's pretty old. Definitely much older than 15.4. You can't print screen in FSE, unfortunately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XMonarchY View Post
Ctrl+alt+shift+P during Rec.601 content playback shows "Source primaries: Auto-detect SMPTE (170M)
SMPTE 170M is not the same as SMPTE-C, I think. madVR at least treats them differently. That also explains why madVR is using the BT.709 3dlut.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XMonarchY View Post
But that cannot be the case because ctrl+J menu reports BT.601 primaries for my SMPTE 170M content...
That sounds strange that Ctrl+Alt+Shift+P shows something different than the debug OSD! Can I see a screenshot of the debug OSD with Ctrl+Alt+Shift+P overlayed on top of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberscott View Post
Just tried 88.8. Previous to this version, the original debanding was beating out Shiandow deband script, even with the clear improvements since its' introduction into madVR
I can now say that Shiandow deband script included in 88.8 has now edged out madVR's deband to my eyes using Power 0.50 and Margin 0.02.
Ok, thanks for the feedback. Are you talking about madVR's "high" preset, only? Or do you find Shiandow's deband also better than madVR's "low" and "medium" settings? If so, which settings would you then suggest for "low" and "medium"?

More votes/opinions, please?
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Old 15th May 2015, 22:01   #30089  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysteryX View Post
Since SuperRes is being applied after resizing, shouldn't it have a similar performance hit no matter whether the source material is 288p or 480p?

For 288p material, SuperRes 2 pass causes rendering time to go from 6.2 to 11.9ms on 768p display

For 480p material, same setting causes rendering time to go from 9.3 to 20.2ms!
Good question. I would say your comment makes sense. Don't know why the increase is higher for 480p material. But current priority is on debanding, not SuperRes.
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Old 15th May 2015, 22:03   #30090  |  Link
luk008
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I'll try to downgrade the driver.

I've taken a photo of my issue with FSE 10 bits: http://i.imgur.com/6dntf5u.jpg
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Old 15th May 2015, 22:05   #30091  |  Link
bacondither
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Arrgh... so many new versions in such short time, i'm drowning in them!

I'll do some deep testing with this new debanding majigger this weekend and i will hopefully come to some conclusion.
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Old 15th May 2015, 22:15   #30092  |  Link
MysteryX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Good question. I would say your comment makes sense. Don't know why the increase is higher for 480p material. But current priority is on debanding, not SuperRes.
It's probably the same thing that is causing rendering on 1080p to go from 14ms to 39ms with SuperRes.

Btw, this new version allows me to add SuperRes for SD content on laptop, and Debanding on 1080p content (that needs no upscaling) looks great!

Is there a way to add this SuperRes effect to an AviSynth script? I like the effect it gives for upscaling SD to HD.

Last edited by MysteryX; 24th June 2015 at 06:10.
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Old 15th May 2015, 22:16   #30093  |  Link
luk008
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Older drivers have worse performance for R9 270 and don't solve the issue.
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Old 15th May 2015, 22:22   #30094  |  Link
cyberscott
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post


Ok, thanks for the feedback. Are you talking about madVR's "high" preset, only? Or do you find Shiandow's deband also better than madVR's "low" and "medium" settings? If so, which settings would you then suggest for "low" and "medium"?

More votes/opinions, please?
Oops, forgot to mention that I have always used High/High in madVR deband settings as this always looked best on the content I watch. Shiandow's deband default settings of Power 0.50 and Margin 0.00 is very close to madVR High/High settings to my eyes.
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Old 15th May 2015, 22:23   #30095  |  Link
XMonarchY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
That sounds strange that Ctrl+Alt+Shift+P shows something different than the debug OSD! Can I see a screenshot of the debug OSD with Ctrl+Alt+Shift+P overlayed on top of it?
More votes/opinions, please?
I edited my thread like 20 times to make it as clear as possible, so I am not sure which edition of my reply you're replying to, lol!

Just to recap, my content was labeled SMPTE 170M, which madVR treated differently from content labeled SMPTE C. When I toggled and enabled SMPTE C through ctrl+shift+alt+p, proper Rec.601 3DLUT in SMPTE C line was applied. 3DLUT's in SMPTE C line simply do not apply to SMPTE 170M content...

Here's a screenshot of the original ctrl+j menu WITHOUT toggling. It is how madVR "auto-detected" content I guess. madVR applied Rec.709 3DLUT from BT.709 line to this content.



I can't find how SMPTE 170M and SMPTE C differ in terms of primaries. They both use Rec. 601 primaries, gamma and D65 white point, don't they? I wonder if ArgyllCMS can create SMPTE 170M 3DLUT. Any ideas? I know this is madVR forum (not Display Calibration forum), but I figured you may know...
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Last edited by XMonarchY; 15th May 2015 at 22:26.
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Old 15th May 2015, 22:24   #30096  |  Link
leeperry
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Is 10bit supposed to work via DVI-SL on AMD with 13.12 and W7SP1?

I tried 88.7 and 88.8, enabled desktop composition in W7SP1, D3D11 10bit output in mVR with 8 frames in advance and I don't have desktop composition disabled in mVR.

I also tried to reboot after enabling Aero, reset mVR's defaults and run the latest nightly build of MPC-HC and I'm still stuck in DX9 land

The only reason I could think of is that I'm using a DVI-SL cable to my HDMI Sammy TV but 10bit is apparently supported via DVI huh:
Quote:
my Eizo CG243W does indeed accept full 10bit input over a single-link DVI-D connection (it doesn't have dual-link).
I didn't try 10bit earlier as I don't like Aero Peek, Aero's reflections effects on windows and when I switch from FSE to FSW in PotP with Aero off I get flashing black frames but when it's enabled I get zombie previous frames from the movie which is plain annoying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
NEDI has much stronger fractal artifacts than NNEDI3. However, SuperRes really helps there. So a combination of NEDI+SuperRes *may* be able to compete with NNEDI3. However, you can also combine NNEDI3 with SuperRes, too! So there's a lot of things to try out to find the best quality. But as I said, it's too early to discuss that. We'll come to SuperRes discussion sooner or later, but we're not there yet.
Using SR, EE is just too strong with NNEDI3 to my eyes as in moving objects feeling like cel shading, the picture screams DIGITAL(using ED2@8bit). Downscaling it with SR enabled on 720p content using CR AR LL is seriously too sharp whatever anime or live action, J3AR looks the most natural but is also way too soft.....NEDI makes for a nice in-between to my eyes, me like

I guess I could tame down SR'ed NNEDI3's über-sharpness with a softer downscaler as CR AR LL is too sharp and Softcubic50 AR LL obviously too soft but CR AR LL looks great with NEDI, the latter requiring far less ressources and also taking care of chroma kinda being the icing on the cake

Quote:
Originally Posted by QBhd View Post
I had figured this out quite quickly when using D3D11... pressing the TAB key to pull up the OSD of PotPlayer would sort of kick madVR out of whack and it couldn't recover without a playback restart. Selecting "display messages on image itself" helped with the TAB OSD message... put pausing still borks madVR, even just clicking on the other desktop can do it. So I have resorted to not using D3D11.
What's the "other desktop"? I only use PotP's D3D GUI, no other OSD.

I wouldn't need to break a sweat about 10bit no workee on my box if PotP becomes unusable to begin with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
i'm pretty sure this has nothing to do with seeing banding.
you can easily get banding on a gray ramp.
That's the thing, we're judging colorful banding and colorblinds see less tints.

Last edited by leeperry; 16th May 2015 at 00:00.
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Old 15th May 2015, 22:27   #30097  |  Link
XRyche
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
madVR v0.88.8 released

http://madshi.net/madVR.zip

Code:
* updated to latest Shiandow deband script
* fixed: D3D11 didn't activate with "frames presented in advance" set to 16
* fixed: ConfigureDisplayModeChanger(allowResolutionChanges = false) bug
So here's the latest Deband update again. Please retest - thank you!

(P.S: And you can set the number pre presented frames in advance back to 16 for D3D11, if you like. madVR will then automatically reduce it to 15.)
The frames in advance set to 16 was precisely the issue that I was having. Thank you for fixing it. When I got home i started tinkering with it and found that this was the exact issue and was just about to post it . It is now working for me exactly the way you described it. Set FSE pre-presented frames to 16 and it automatically sets it to 15.
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Old 15th May 2015, 22:34   #30098  |  Link
aufkrawall
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I still think that the old deband implementation is more efficient in terms of quality:
At high, it softens the image less than Shiandow's at 0.5 and fights banding still partially better (but also partially worse).

imho there's not much room for highering the values when even 0.5 softens the image more than old algo@high.

Anyway, thank you two for your continuous great work!
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Old 15th May 2015, 22:44   #30099  |  Link
XRyche
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luk008 View Post
I've reboot and resetted madVR to default settings, but still the same problem.
Maybe a driver issue? Are you using 15.4 as well?

PS: How can I print the screen in FSE to show you the issue?
I am currently using 15.3 and didn't have a que issue in FSE D3D11 10 bit. I'm downloading 15.4 now and will verify whether 15.4 is giving me the same issue as you, as soon as I restart.
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Old 15th May 2015, 22:44   #30100  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XMonarchY View Post
The problem was that SMPTE 170M aws not detected as SMPTE C, even though ctrl+j menu reported that my SMPTE 170M content had "matrix BT.601". Its all a bit confusing...
Not at all. The matrix is a totally different thing from the primaries. E.g. EBU/PAL and SMPTE-C have different primaries, but use the same BT.601 matrix.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XMonarchY View Post
Do you think you could add SMPTE 170M standard support for SMPTE C line or make an extra line for SMPTE 170M? AFAIK SMPTE C is the color gamut that uses Rec.601 primaries, while SMPTE 170M is the actual standard, not just the color gamut name. I mean its no big deal really, since I can toggle now.
Hmmmm... Have checked the numbers. It does seem as if the primaries are the same. So probably I should use the SMPTE-C 3dlut for SMPTE-170M files. Btw, SMPTE-240M seems to use the same primaries, too - but a different matrix <sigh>.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Is 10bit supposed to work via DVI-SL on AMD with 13.12 and W7SP1?

I tried 88.7 and 88.8, enabled desktop composition in W7SP1, DCD11 10bit output in mVR with 8 frames in advance and I don't have desktop composition disabled in mVR.
Do you get D3D11 mode working at all? In windowed mode? Or with 8bit display bitdepth? I rather think that the problem is D3D11 mode in general, and not the 10bit.

Do you have the Windows 7 Platform Update installed? That's a requirement for madVR's D3D11 presentation path.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Using SR, EE is just too strong with NNEDI3 to my eyes as in moving objects feeling like cel shading, the picture screams DIGITAL(using ED2@8bit). Downscaling it with SR enabled on 720p content using CR AR LL is seriously too sharp whatever anime or live action, J3AR looks the most natural but is also way too soft.....NEDI makes for a nice in-between to my eyes, me like
There are different SR defaults for NNEDI3 compared to NEDI. Have you adjusted them? Also you can tame SR further down, if you still find it too sharp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by luk008 View Post
I'll try to downgrade the driver.

I've taken a photo of my issue with FSE 10 bits: http://i.imgur.com/6dntf5u.jpg
Looks like the presentation times are the problem. They probably slow rendering down so much that the rendering queue doesn't fill. Don't know why that happens - especially only in 10bit! Strange...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bacondither View Post
Arrgh... so many new versions in such short time, i'm drowning in them!

I'll do some deep testing with this new debanding majigger this weekend and i will hopefully come to some conclusion.
Great - looking forward to your feedback!

(Use only the latest version, ignore the older versions. Maybe that will stop you from drowning... )

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberscott View Post
Oops, forgot to mention that I have always used High/High in madVR deband settings as this always looked best on the content I watch. Shiandow's deband default settings of Power 0.50 and Margin 0.00 is very close to madVR High/High settings to my eyes.
Ah ok. So probably no vote from you about old low/medium vs Shiandow?

Quote:
Originally Posted by XRyche View Post
The frames in advance set to 16 was precisely the issue that I was having. Thank you for fixing it. When I got home i started tinkering with it and found that this was the exact issue and was just about to post it . It is now working for me exactly the way you described it. Set FSE pre-presented frames to 16 and it automatically sets it to 15.
Good to hear!

Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
I still think that the old deband implementation is more efficient in terms of quality:
At high, it softens the image less than Shiandow's at 0.5 and fights banding still partially better (but also partially worse).

imho there's not much room for highering the values when even 0.5 softens the image more than old algo@high.
Thanks for your feedback!

I've done a quick comparison myself and also found that the old high algo works partially better and partially worse at debanding, while keeping slightly higher detail. Wasn't sure which I preferred overall...
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