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Old 21st November 2015, 19:23   #1  |  Link
Xorp
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Convert 3/1 (4.0) to 3/2 (5.0)

What's the best way to convert 3/1 (4.0) to 3/2 (5.0)? Because a lot of players still mess up 3/1 and play it as 2/2, I want all my 3/1(4.0) stuff to be 3/2(5.0)

I know the start is:
-decode DTS-MA/PCM 4.0 to wavs
-make a copy of the rear channel, label them BL and BR.

then what?
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Old 21st November 2015, 20:05   #2  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xorp View Post
-make a copy of the rear channel, label them BL and BR.

then what?
Then you will have to encode some compressed audio format again from the per-channel WAVs. You may not easily purchase any dts encoder, but as a free AC3 encoder, you can use Aften and different GUIs supporting it, like EncWAVtoAC3, it has a multiplex interface where you can select channel WAVs and build a call for Aften with MUX file (AFAIR, long ago...).
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Old 21st November 2015, 20:37   #3  |  Link
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Instead copy BC and create BL and BR with the same volume you must atenuate the volume to preserve the global balance.

eac3to BC.wav BL.wav -3dB
eac3to BC.wav BR.wav -3dB
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Old 22nd November 2015, 13:00   #4  |  Link
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would you also have to attenuate channels if you transform a mono 1.0 track into a mono 2.0 track by simply copying the center channel and making L, R out of it?
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Old 22nd November 2015, 18:27   #5  |  Link
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would you also have to attenuate channels if you transform a mono 1.0 track into a mono 2.0 track by simply copying the center channel and making L, R out of it?
That is not needed, only optative, because don't change the balance.

In 3/1 to 3/2 you duplicate the rear volume, maintaining the front volume, if not attenuate.
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Old 23rd November 2015, 12:38   #6  |  Link
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I would do:
Copy Back Surround to BL and BR, then BL-(R*F), BR-(L*F) where F is a constant (for example -12 ... -24dB).
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Old 23rd November 2015, 12:40   #7  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Thunderbolt8 View Post
would you also have to attenuate channels if you transform a mono 1.0 track into a mono 2.0 track by simply copying the center channel and making L, R out of it?
Yes, signal should be reduced by 3.103dB (1/SQRT(2)) .

Last edited by pandy; 23rd November 2015 at 12:41. Reason: argh - any plans to autocombine?
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Old 23rd November 2015, 16:48   #8  |  Link
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Originally Posted by pandy View Post
I would do:
Copy Back Surround to BL and BR, then BL-(R*F), BR-(L*F) where F is a constant (for example -12 ... -24dB).
What is this? That mixes don't have sense for me.

The question is emulate the source, not create new effects.
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Old 23rd November 2015, 17:17   #9  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xorp View Post
-make a copy of the rear channel, label them BL and BR.
then what?
After creating BL & BR from your (original) surround channel, you only need to attenuate both BL & BR by 3.103dB. If you choose to not apply attenuation, your new surround channels will be 3.103dB louder compared to the original.

Last edited by AlexKane; 23rd November 2015 at 17:25. Reason: cosmetic surgery
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Old 24th November 2015, 08:15   #10  |  Link
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Originally Posted by tebasuna51 View Post
What is this? That mixes don't have sense for me.

The question is emulate the source, not create new effects.
The question is:

Quote:
What's the best way to convert 3/1 (4.0) to 3/2 (5.0)?
IMHO best way - of course this is my personal preference best for me.
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Old 24th November 2015, 09:29   #11  |  Link
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Originally Posted by pandy View Post
IMHO best way - of course this is my personal preference best for me.
Ok.

Well, for that exist the rule:

Quote:
12) How NOT to post on this forum:
...
Do not ask "what's best" because this question cannot be answered objectively. Each and everyone has their own view about what's best in a certain area. The best is what works best for you!
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Old 24th November 2015, 15:09   #12  |  Link
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Ok.

Well, for that exist the rule:
Yes but seem that OP ignored this rule and moderators accepted this... don't shoot messenger...
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Old 24th November 2015, 22:37   #13  |  Link
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But my obligation like moderator is say than BL-(R*F), BR-(L*F) is, maybe, the best for pandy, but not to preserve the original sound.
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Old 24th November 2015, 23:45   #14  |  Link
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But my obligation like moderator is say than BL-(R*F), BR-(L*F) is, maybe, the best for pandy, but not to preserve the original sound.
And? Best =/= preservation.

but OK - feel free to remove my answers in this topic - have no will to argue with moderator.
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Old 25th November 2015, 13:24   #15  |  Link
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We can discuss about a topic, puting the arguments, and the users can choice the best for each one.
I am a moderator but I do not want impose my arguments, I want convince.
And I not need remove any answer if are technical arguments without personal offenses.

- Now my arguments about:
BL = 0.707 * BC
BR = 0.707 * BC
(0.707 = -3.01dB)

When we listen the same sound in BL and BR speakers our brain listen a phantom channel at the middle position. Just the position of the BC speaker.
The acustic power is proportional to the square value of volume, and added the two channels:
(0.707*BC)^2 + (0.707*BC)^2 = BC^2
The same than provided by the original BC channel.

Then with a 3/2.0 system we listen the same than we have a 3/1 system, like original source was.

- Now some arguments for what I don't like your method:
BL = BC - k*FR
BR = BC - k*FL
where k is a constant (for example -12 ... -24dB).

1) The acustic power is always big than original sound

2) Maybe this mix enforce the surround effect with some, not always for all, music sound.
But here we speak about sound tracks from movies and we can obtain undesired effects.
When a actor are at the left side of the screen many dialog volume go to FL speaker. For what we need listen this dialog (added or substracted) from the BR speaker?
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Old 25th November 2015, 19:38   #16  |  Link
pandy
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Originally Posted by tebasuna51 View Post
We can discuss about a topic, puting the arguments, and the users can choice the best for each one.
I am a moderator but I do not want impose my arguments, I want convince.
And I not need remove any answer if are technical arguments without personal offenses.

- Now my arguments about:
BL = 0.707 * BC
BR = 0.707 * BC
(0.707 = -3.01dB)

When we listen the same sound in BL and BR speakers our brain listen a phantom channel at the middle position. Just the position of the BC speaker.
The acustic power is proportional to the square value of volume, and added the two channels:
(0.707*BC)^2 + (0.707*BC)^2 = BC^2
The same than provided by the original BC channel.

Then with a 3/2.0 system we listen the same than we have a 3/1 system, like original source was.

- Now some arguments for what I don't like your method:
BL = BC - k*FR
BR = BC - k*FL
where k is a constant (for example -12 ... -24dB).

1) The acustic power is always big than original sound

2) Maybe this mix enforce the surround effect with some, not always for all, music sound.
But here we speak about sound tracks from movies and we can obtain undesired effects.
When a actor are at the left side of the screen many dialog volume go to FL speaker. For what we need listen this dialog (added or substracted) from the BR speaker?
My point was only to express that involving rule 12 at end of discussion have no sense.

I've tried to find Dolby recommendation how to perform mixing for OP problem but can't find anything useful.
From my perspective separating Rear Surround by partially removing energy from Front speaker may improve channel separation - that's all.
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Old 10th March 2016, 02:35   #17  |  Link
Xorp
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Originally Posted by tebasuna51 View Post
Instead copy BC and create BL and BR with the same volume you must atenuate the volume to preserve the global balance.

eac3to BC.wav BL.wav -3dB
eac3to BC.wav BR.wav -3dB
Thank you, I forgot I made this thread from November...

What software will make the 3/2 layout audio I'm desiring?
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Old 10th March 2016, 10:01   #18  |  Link
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When you have the 5 channels: FL.wav, FR.wav, FC.wav, BL.wav and BR.wav you can convert them to:

Lossless flac:
Quote:
ffmpeg -i FL.wav -i FR.wav -i FC.wav -i BL.wav -i BR.wav -filter_complex "[0:0][1:0][2:0][3:0][4:0] amerge=inputs=5" -acodec flac -ac 5 output.flac
Lossy AC3 (the more compatible for players):
Quote:
ffmpeg -i FL.wav -i FR.wav -i FC.wav -i BL.wav -i BR.wav -filter_complex "[0:0][1:0][2:0][3:0][4:0] amerge=inputs=5" -acodec ac3 -ac 5 -ab 640k -center_mixlev 0.707 output.ac3
Or DTS (Lossless or lossy) if you own the DTS-HD Master Audio Suite.
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Old 17th March 2016, 00:31   #19  |  Link
Xorp
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Originally Posted by tebasuna51 View Post
When you have the 5 channels: FL.wav, FR.wav, FC.wav, BL.wav and BR.wav you can convert them to:

Lossless flac:


Lossy AC3 (the more compatible for players):


Or DTS (Lossless or lossy) if you own the DTS-HD Master Audio Suite.
Thank you! In the past it's been recommended to use SoX -M (merge) with the wavs, is ffmpeg the superior way to do this? Or equivalent?
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Old 17th March 2016, 08:43   #20  |  Link
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The merge method is equivalent. Is a lossless operation.
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Last edited by tebasuna51; 17th March 2016 at 09:21.
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