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Old 22nd July 2010, 13:29   #41  |  Link
SamuriHL
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Originally Posted by Peer van Heuen View Post
Just to avoid misconceptions: it has been speculated numerous times, that the actual detection of the watermark would take 20 minutes (because it's so hard to detect).
That is very, very unlikely. Consider, that you can (and it is officially condoned) simply pause playback for at least 10 minutes and you will get another 20 minutes of unmuted playback.
I suppose this type of reaction to the wm is embedded in the watermark itself - as other types of cinavia watermarks found on bootlegs seem to trigger it right away (haven't tried that myself, but it has been stated somewhere).

It's possibly just make it more difficult to defeat it - if every attempt to do so will require at least 20 minutes of testing afterwards.
Defeating it on cam recordings is a little more difficult anyway, as there is no real "unmarked" audio stream to compare with (the cam recording adds so much noise itself that you won't be able to tell the difference between a mark and trash frequencies), while with blu-rays there obviously is.

I'm pretty sure you'll be able to reliably detect the watermark in any chunk of a few seconds length taken out of the audio stream.



Totally agreed. They could have gone on doing that for ages to come. But now, after introducing it to blu-rays, they've drawn so much attention to this protection, that it will probably not survive a year....



So far I have only seen mentionings of the Pioneer BDP-V6000 having the detection on board. No actual confirmations so far.
Thanks, Peer. Good information as always. It's interesting to note that the PS3 at least seems to detect it faster and faster each time. For instance, on the original BD-RE I made yesterday, it took 20 minutes, 3 seconds to show the error and mute the audio. On subsequent backup attempts, and even my attempt at bitstreaming the DTS core, it took a little over 19 minutes to show the error and mute the audio. It's been suggested that the PS3 has some kind of cache but I don't really know.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 13:31   #42  |  Link
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Whoever it was that asked me to make an MP4, I did so last night and streamed it a few minutes ago. AAC stereo audio converted from the DTS-HD MA track. (And in fact, I had run it through MakeMKV first to convert it to a MKV before the MP4 conversion). Detected Cinavia in a little over 19 minutes as I said in my last post. Audio re-encoding will not help, as we already knew. At least I was able to confirm it. I have one more thing I want to try and then I'll be done playing with this foolish protection for now. It's been a fun little experiment, though.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 13:37   #43  |  Link
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Thanks. I thought maybe it won't check in all media, but then again that would make the watermark kind of pointless.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 13:50   #44  |  Link
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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
AAC stereo audio converted from the DTS-HD MA track
Does that mean that watermark signal remains there even when original multi-channel audio has been normalized and/or downmixed to stereo? Very effective technique I would say...
for your experiments
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Old 22nd July 2010, 13:58   #45  |  Link
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Yup, that's exactly what it means. No matter how you re-encode it, the watermark is still embedded into the signal. From a technical standpoint I'm actually kind of impressed. From a wanting to backup my collection of movies standpoint, not so much.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 14:37   #46  |  Link
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From a technical standpoint I'm actually kind of impressed.
You've described this protection countless times as "stupid", and (most often) "foolish". When are you going to change to "clever", "brilliant", "impenetrable", "unstoppable"...?
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Old 22nd July 2010, 14:42   #47  |  Link
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You've described this protection countless times as "stupid", and (most often) "foolish". When are you going to change to "clever", "brilliant", "impenetrable", "unstoppable"...?
ROFLMAO! When I refer to it as stupid and foolish it's as an end user that wants to backup their library. Again, from a purely technical standpoint, it is pretty impressive. The signal is embedded in such a way that it resists all re-encoding and even analog recording. And in theory, at least, this signal is inaudible. (The jury's out on that one and I'm not even going to TRY to debate it. The purists would crucify me if I even tried.) That's not a small accomplishment, really. However, as an end user, it's stupid and foolish.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 14:50   #48  |  Link
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ROFLMAO!
Glad you took my comment as the joke that it was (I was smiling as I typed it).

I wonder about one thing that I don't think has been discussed--how does a company like Oppo get away with not including such stuff (Cinavia or I think even AACS) in their players? I thought they signed-on with the Sony Gestapo and had to follow all their rulez.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 14:54   #49  |  Link
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Oppo definitely supports AACS. Their BD player is pre-Cinavia vintage afaik, so, unless they can update it with a firmware to support Cinavia, there's nothing they can do. I suspect a LOT of existing players are going to be in the same boat. If it's possible to update with a firmware, then they'll be required to at some point. The AACS LA is requiring all new players to support it. That means TMT/PDVD/WinDVD will all have to support it at some point, too. Good times.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 14:59   #50  |  Link
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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
Yup, that's exactly what it means. No matter how you re-encode it, the watermark is still embedded into the signal. From a technical standpoint I'm actually kind of impressed. From a wanting to backup my collection of movies standpoint, not so much.
What about applying some strong low-pass filter, let's say <15kHz?
I know such manipulation have no real use for typical end users (read audiophiles) but I'm just being curious for the sake of it.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 15:05   #51  |  Link
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Oppo definitely supports AACS. Their BD player is pre-Cinavia vintage afaik, so, unless they can update it with a firmware to support Cinavia, there's nothing they can do. I suspect a LOT of existing players are going to be in the same boat. If it's possible to update with a firmware, then they'll be required to at some point. The AACS LA is requiring all new players to support it. That means TMT/PDVD/WinDVD will all have to support it at some point, too. Good times.
Thanks. Hey as the current, undisputed, reigning expert on this subject you might wanna take some care to add the smilie to some of your "Good times" comments. Methinks it confuses some people.

And, some of us are easily confused!
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Old 22nd July 2010, 15:14   #52  |  Link
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What about applying some strong low-pass filter, let's say <15kHz?
I know such manipulation have no real use for typical end users (read audiophiles) but I'm just being curious for the sake of it.
I honestly couldn't tell you. Definitely not an area I know anything about. I suspect, however, that the signal is embedded over various frequencies, but I'm just guessing here.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 15:19   #53  |  Link
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Thanks. Hey as the current, undisputed, reigning expert on this subject you might wanna take some care to add the smilie to some of your "Good times" comments. Methinks it confuses some people.

And, some of us are easily confused!
Reigning expert? ROFLMAO! I'm gonna go with no on that one. All I've done is to take my retail disc and run it through various backup scenarios and post the results. I have NO idea how to defeat this protection. I don't even fully understand how it works. They embed a signal in the audio stream (all channels, btw) that can resist re-encoding and analog recording attempts. The player somehow detects the embedded signal. And somehow (wizards?!) they managed to make it "inaudible". I put that in quotes for the purists that would say it's not really inaudible. How that signal works I have no idea. Wish I did. What's neat is they apparently have a couple different kinds of signals. For example, if you go to a cinema and record a movie (HIGHLY illegal, NOT RECOMMENDED) and bring it home to watch on your Cinavia enabled device, it apparently detects it immediately and shuts down playback completely. At least according to what I've read when searching for info on this. Then there's the signal embedded on my retail BD. This triggers after about 20 minutes or so of playing and mutes the audio. It's quite fascinating if not annoying.
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Last edited by Guest; 23rd July 2010 at 12:29. Reason: 6
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Old 23rd July 2010, 07:47   #54  |  Link
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Yeah as they state the Content owner can decide what the user is able todo with it DRM, though it's not really impressive if you know that research in this field was going on for many years and if you know about the things that for example IBM was researching it isn't really surprising either, Cinavia could very well replace also (IBMs DRM) stuff like the in house streaming only or licensed devices allowed only part as it seems to be configurable that way also only every Device and Software on the market would need to be prepared for this which will take some time, i guess we gonna see more in the future also here on Doom9 reporting about issues, the 20 min playback seems to be wanted btw from Universal as a Trial watch period very clever
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Old 23rd July 2010, 16:22   #55  |  Link
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I'm not sure if this is possible, would there be a way to load both the DVD audio and the BluRay audio in some audio program and compare the two? I'm not sure of the terminology, but do some sort of search that would find the differences or subtract the differences...

If the signal could be identified, maybe some sort of filter could be made to remove the signal.

I don't know if this is helpful in anyway, just sort of thinking out loud =)
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Old 23rd July 2010, 16:29   #56  |  Link
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That idea has been discussed on another forum. As one person pointed out, "eyeballing" it is not going to be very productive. If you don't know what you're searching for, finding it will be impossible even if you believe you have "identical" streams, which of course they're not. One is a DTS-HD MA track, and even if you convert it to AC3 it'll still be different than the DVD's AC3 track. Even if they were theoretically identical, finding the signal embedded isn't going to be easy. Certainly not really possible just looking at them visually.
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Old 23rd July 2010, 16:37   #57  |  Link
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Yeah, but if you subtracted the differences between the two sources, you should be left with a third "inaudible" wave file. My guess is that it would look like pulses in a repeating pattern, like Morse code.
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Old 23rd July 2010, 17:44   #58  |  Link
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Yeah, but if you subtracted the differences between the two sources, you should be left with a third "inaudible" wave file.
That's probably a little naive. As SamuriHL mentioned earlier, the BD and DVD audio streams are so fundamentally different that even if you could "subtract the difference" between the two, you'd be throwing out a whole bunch of good information along with the Cinavia signal, maybe even to the point of degrading the quality to unintelligibility.
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Old 24th July 2010, 05:38   #59  |  Link
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**EDIT - Truncated URLs Fixed

As I mentioned in another thread, the following appears to indicate that Foobar/Foobar2000 has the capability of identifying and eliminating audio watermarking (Post #3):

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...92#post1302992

Although this is applicable to audio DVDs (DVD-A), if it works, it might provide some insight regarding the workings of the "Verance"/"Cinavia" watermarking methodology, as well as possibly eliminate the need to perform some testing that has already been done.This, in addition to the 2001 white paper at:

http://www.usenix.org/publications/l...c01/craver.pdf

might provide a significant "leg up" in analysis...

Last edited by setarip_old; 24th July 2010 at 19:32. Reason: Fixed truncated urls
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Old 24th July 2010, 10:29   #60  |  Link
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setarip_old: please fix the links in your previous post, they are truncated
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