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Old 16th May 2016, 20:22   #38021  |  Link
mark0077
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madshi, very small issue I have after every upgrade. I just want to get your opinion on it, as to whether to register it as a bug or not on madVR bug list.

After I upgrade versions, if I then launch a movie and go to fullscreen. If I then open the madVR properties via right click mpc-be window and open madVR properties, some sort of permissions dialog box appears behind the madVR window but I actually can't get to the "Edit Settings" section. Its like as if mpc-be and the "Properties" dialog are in some sort of modal setup where no combination of clicking Close / OK / Cancel / Alt-Tab can get me out of it. I have to kill with task manager or if I can't get to it which is the case right now, I have to reboot.

Just not sure if its anything that be made so that it doesn't appear on each upgrade.

EDIT: OK I reproduced in non full screen mode, and its Windows Smartscreen pop up thats saying its an unknown application. (Windows 10 64bit)

Last edited by mark0077; 16th May 2016 at 20:54.
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Old 16th May 2016, 20:49   #38022  |  Link
James Freeman
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Originally Posted by Ver Greeneyes View Post
Nearest neighbor, linear and bicubic (and its variants) are interpolation-based, but upscalers like SuperXBR and NNEDI3 work quite differently.
This exactly the answer I was looking for, thanks.
I got confused about why would a good interpolation upscaler like Lanczos looks like a superscaling reconstruction filter (xBR) with very large upscaling ratios.
Still, I see ringing with anything besides bilinear with a special test pattern.
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Last edited by James Freeman; 16th May 2016 at 20:56.
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Old 16th May 2016, 21:01   #38023  |  Link
ang3l
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
yes thx
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Old 16th May 2016, 21:08   #38024  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Still, I see ringing with anything besides bilinear with a special test pattern.
Of course, but bilinear is much softer, ie. blurrier. Its all a matter of tradeoffs, especially when you stick to "normal" filters. Lanczos is sharper, but rings more.

Some people prefer sharper images, some people prefer the blurier, but cleaner look of softer interpolation.

There is no "correct" scaler.
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Old 16th May 2016, 21:40   #38025  |  Link
DragonQ
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Unfortunately no.

It's a new display every time? Does your AVR use a random serial number or how does that happen? Maybe it's just 2-5 different detected displays instead of an infinite number?
Not entirely sure but twice now I've had to reset it and there's at least 3 entries in the list of displays.
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Old 16th May 2016, 21:45   #38026  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by DragonQ View Post
Not entirely sure but twice now I've had to reset it and there's at least 3 entries in the list of displays.
When that happens, simply drag & drop the new ID entry of the newly detected display to the original display. Afterwards you can remove the empty shell of the new display.
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Old 16th May 2016, 23:25   #38027  |  Link
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Small request:

Current option:
"disable scaling if image size changes by only:"
Could you add a sub-option below it:
"allow integer-factor resizes to hit the same target"

to have for example a 1918x1078 video upscale to 3836x2156, for performance reasons.
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Old 16th May 2016, 23:53   #38028  |  Link
djfred93
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Originally Posted by har3inger View Post
Yes, that is compression ringing (artefact from low video bitrate). However, the dering filter is more targeted towards downscale ringing, which are thin halos right beside lines, not ripples a fair ways away. The filter may not remove the ringing in this image very well/at all.
OK. Thanks. Unfortunately, you're right, the dering filter doesn't remove the ringing in this file.
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Old 17th May 2016, 01:31   #38029  |  Link
CarlosCaco
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Your posts are really hard to read. Try sorting your sentences into logical paragraphs, please, and don't use line breaks, except to separate paragraphs.

So is image doubling not activating for you, if you select "supersampling" in the image doubling section? Or does it activate, but upscaling refinement doesn't activate?


sorry about that, english is not my native language

if i set supersamplig image doubling activate but upscalling refinement doesn t activate
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Old 17th May 2016, 06:36   #38030  |  Link
Betroz
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super-xbr vs NNEDI3

@madshi, is there a way to compare super-xbr to NNEDI3 settings? Like super-xbr 100 gives the same image quality as NNEDI3 *** neurons?

It would be really nice to have some sort av list that compares the different settings, so people could have a general template to aim for according to the hardware capabilities their computers have.
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Old 17th May 2016, 07:28   #38031  |  Link
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Where is image enhancing heading? Is anti-aliasing a thing of the past? What I'm saying is as resolution increases the requirements to achieve the best image change when upscaling. If your gaming in a 4k resolution on a 55inch screen is enabling any form of anti-aliasing simply putting uneeded work on the GPU for example? Of course upscaling is a little different but if your upscaling from say 720p to 1080p I feel using the same algo to upscale from 720p to 4k may not give the best result as using a different algo because of our eyes and the target resolution.

For me its all getting quite blurry in the gain some of these algos really bring. Probably mainly because I dont have the best eyesight in the world to be able to see the difference when sitting down to actually watch something at a normal viewing distance. On top of that of course not all content is the same.

But I do wonder if it is getting into the realm now where it should be possible for a renderer to look at the source resolution, destination resolution, and color spec. Then examine key frames in the movie and automatically pick the best scaling algo? For me personally I would enable such an option. Even if it required me waiting a minute for a movie to start while madVR calculated the best scaling based on the source material and output resolution etc, I think it would be worth it.

I guess a good start to that would be for a renderer to try a detect if the source material is a movie or animation by simply looking at frames of the source material only.

Last edited by Razoola; 17th May 2016 at 07:56.
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Old 17th May 2016, 07:44   #38032  |  Link
ryrynz
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Originally Posted by Razoola View Post
But I do wonder if it is getting into the realm now where it should be possible for a renderer to look at the source resolution, destination resolution, and color spec. Then examine key frames in the movie and automatically pick the best scaling algo?
You determine what you feel is "best" as everyone will have different opinions, BTW you can already set profiles to do to as you said.

I suspect it's likely not worth the effort to have preset profiles determined by graphics card power, while this has been mentioned a few times I don't think it will happen.

Plenty of guides online give you opinions on what to set based on general opinion, you just need to put some time and effort in to following them and determining what you think suits your display, taste & content.

Last edited by ryrynz; 17th May 2016 at 07:56.
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Old 17th May 2016, 07:50   #38033  |  Link
ionutm80
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Hi guys,

Really need your help here since I've done all possible things to solve the issue but to no avail.

My sytem chain:
- TV: Philips 32PFL9632, only accepts 60Hz resolution for PC input,
- HTPC: Win 10 x64, GTX 960 4GB, Intel Core I5 3470s, 8GB DDR3 1600, Intel SSD 128Gb
- Software: MPC-HC x64 nightly 207, LAV Filter 0.68.1, madVR 0.90.19, SVP 4 Pro

As stated above I'm using SVP to interpolate frames to 59.94 for my Blu-Ray rips 23.976 done with eac3to (thanks madshi for another great tool!). In madVR display modes I have input 1080p60, 1080p59 just to be sure. However madVR stats reports display at 59.93760 which is close to 59.94 but not a perfect match (I have another HTPC with an Intel HD4400 and I'm able to achieve 59.94006).I'm guessing this is the reason why I'm seeing "1 frame drop every 19.48 minutes", because otherwise rendering and present stats are more than ok and my rig should be more than capable to handle my madVR settings (chroma-up: Bicubic75AR, image-up: Lanczos 3 Taps + AR, downscalling: SSIM 1D, no doubling, ordered dithering, use D3D11, enable automatic fullscreen, everything unchecked in trade quality for performance). I've also tried to create a custom resolution with NVidia Control Panel of exact 59.94 but it seems that my TV is rejecting it, madVR starts showing 59.94 for 1 sec and than immediately switch back to 59.937 and sometime crashes.

Is there anything I can do about it? Is it my TV that only accept a fixed resolution, my NVidia which cannot produce a more accurate 59.94 or both?

I have also attached an image with madVR stats in full screen taken with my phone, sorry for the resolution.

http://i.imgur.com/IGVLpJS.jpg

The image is taken immediately after the movie started and I reset the initial dropped frames but I have also tested the movie for 1 hr and indeed after 20 minutes or so it started to dropped frames 15, 24, etc.

Thanks a lot in advance for any help.
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Old 17th May 2016, 09:12   #38034  |  Link
Razoola
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Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
You determine what you feel is "best" as everyone will have different opinions, BTW you can already set profiles to do to as you said.

I suspect it's likely not worth the effort to have preset profiles determined by graphics card power, while this has been mentioned a few times I don't think it will happen.

Plenty of guides online give you opinions on what to set based on general opinion, you just need to put some time and effort in to following them and determining what you think suits your display, taste & content.
I am aware of this, just pointing out that one setting for say a 720p source movie may not work so well for another movie also at 720p given the filming techniques used by the director. You begin to get to the stage where the setting used for one does not work for the other.
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Old 17th May 2016, 09:57   #38035  |  Link
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I am aware of this, just pointing out that one setting for say a 720p source movie may not work so well for another movie also at 720p given the filming techniques used by the director. You begin to get to the stage where the setting used for one does not work for the other.
This is my experience as well, there aren't any universal settings optimal for all sources even at a single resolution, especially for upscaling refinement, artifact removal, and image enhancements.

However, having an algorithm pick optimal madVR settings is a far future concept. We don't even have a good way to measure video quality mathematically.

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Originally Posted by ionutm80 View Post
The image is taken immediately after the movie started and I reset the initial dropped frames but I have also tested the movie for 1 hr and indeed after 20 minutes or so it started to dropped frames 15, 24, etc.
Your expected frame drop reported by madVR should only be a single frame every twenty minutes. It is to keep the video in-sync with the audio while usually playing the video correctly at the very slightly off frame rate. It sounds like your problem is somewhere else.

I suspect madVR interacting with SVP. Those are pretty light settings, is the GPU downclocking after a while?

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Originally Posted by ionutm80 View Post
Really need your help here since I've done all possible things to solve the issue but to no avail.
"All possible things" rules out pretty much everything we could suggest... What have you tried?
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Old 17th May 2016, 11:04   #38036  |  Link
ionutm80
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post

Your expected frame drop reported by madVR should only be a single frame every twenty minutes. It is to keep the video in-sync with the audio while usually playing the video correctly at the very slightly off frame rate. It sounds like your problem is somewhere else.

I suspect madVR interacting with SVP. Those are pretty light settings, is the GPU downclocking after a while?

"All possible things" rules out pretty much everything we could suggest... What have you tried?
Things tried:
- custom resolution NVidia / not working on my TV - starts with 59.94 but reverts immediately to 59.937
- lowered the settings in madVR to bare minimum / nothing changed
- on x86 chain I have 1 frame drop every 4.xy hours but only with ReClock / obviously not possible in x64
- checked on another system but with Intel HD4400 and there I can get very close to 59.94 --> 59.94006 / probably NVidia 60Hz resolution is in fact fixed at 59.937 ?

I do not know what else to try, but again my knowledge is limited and something escapes me ... or as you suggested maybe could be SVP linked meaning that probably I should interpolate to screen rate (much heavier on resources since more calculations needs to be done) instead of a fixed default 59.94 ...

Downclocking should be spotted with GPU-Z no? I can watch that to see if it's the case. Any suggestions on what else I should check?
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Old 17th May 2016, 11:20   #38037  |  Link
Razoola
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Originally Posted by ionutm80 View Post
Hi guys,

Really need your help here since I've done all possible things to solve the issue but to no avail.

My sytem chain:
- TV: Philips 32PFL9632, only accepts 60Hz resolution for PC input,
- HTPC: Win 10 x64, GTX 960 4GB, Intel Core I5 3470s, 8GB DDR3 1600, Intel SSD 128Gb
- Software: MPC-HC x64 nightly 207, LAV Filter 0.68.1, madVR 0.90.19, SVP 4 Pro

As stated above I'm using SVP to interpolate frames to 59.94 for my Blu-Ray rips 23.976 done with eac3to (thanks madshi for another great tool!). In madVR display modes I have input 1080p60, 1080p59 just to be sure. However madVR stats reports display at 59.93760 which is close to 59.94 but not a perfect match (I have another HTPC with an Intel HD4400 and I'm able to achieve 59.94006).I'm guessing this is the reason why I'm seeing "1 frame drop every 19.48 minutes", because otherwise rendering and present stats are more than ok and my rig should be more than capable to handle my madVR settings (chroma-up: Bicubic75AR, image-up: Lanczos 3 Taps + AR, downscalling: SSIM 1D, no doubling, ordered dithering, use D3D11, enable automatic fullscreen, everything unchecked in trade quality for performance). I've also tried to create a custom resolution with NVidia Control Panel of exact 59.94 but it seems that my TV is rejecting it, madVR starts showing 59.94 for 1 sec and than immediately switch back to 59.937 and sometime crashes.

Is there anything I can do about it? Is it my TV that only accept a fixed resolution, my NVidia which cannot produce a more accurate 59.94 or both?

I have also attached an image with madVR stats in full screen taken with my phone, sorry for the resolution.

http://i.imgur.com/IGVLpJS.jpg

The image is taken immediately after the movie started and I reset the initial dropped frames but I have also tested the movie for 1 hr and indeed after 20 minutes or so it started to dropped frames 15, 24, etc.

Thanks a lot in advance for any help.
Why use SVP at all? Why not scrap SVP and simply enable madVR's smooth motion setting given it will make the required frames also? I think reclock will solve the situation for you given the slight timing situation you have.
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Old 17th May 2016, 11:45   #38038  |  Link
ionutm80
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Why use SVP at all? Why not scrap SVP and simply enable madVR's smooth motion setting given it will make the required frames also? I think reclock will solve the situation for you given the slight timing situation you have.
ReClock is only possible in x86 chain where indeed it allows me to have 1 frame drop every 4.xy hours, however I'm using everything in x64 ...

I know about smooth motion but that is frame blending and not frame interpolation. I kinda like SVP effect but this is a matter of taste.

My question towards more skilled people here is how close NVidia can be to 59.94? Because for me is 59.937. If I force everything at 1080p60 only in madVR I get 59.974 so I'm either below or above the target of 59.94. With Intel HD4400 I'm close to perfection 59.94006.
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Old 17th May 2016, 11:55   #38039  |  Link
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Although reclock will make madvr report a better framedrop interval the value reported by madVR becomes invalid because reclock is constantly adjusting the audio so the framedrop never actually happens. Pity you are using x64, I keep 32bit just for reclock.
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Old 17th May 2016, 12:13   #38040  |  Link
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My question towards more skilled people here is how close NVidia can be to 59.94? Because for me is 59.937. If I force everything at 1080p60 only in madVR I get 59.974 so I'm either below or above the target of 59.94. With Intel HD4400 I'm close to perfection 59.94006.
Do not expect to get exact with Nvidia but madVR's report is not perfectly accurate either. madshi has said that you need to let it run and watch for frame drops if you want to tune the refresh rate perfectly.
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