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Old 4th October 2018, 11:16   #1501  |  Link
vadlerg
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Thank You r0lZ for your time.
I've made some short very high quality HEVC encodings (big files) for testing. The video sequence is quite fast moving so if there are significant quality differences between half and full T&B better to be spotted. I know it may be a little bit off topic but uploaded and sharing them for testing.
Here is half-T&B SAR1:1 and full-T&B SAR1:2 for testing best on passive 4K TV set.

In the BD3D2MK3D package I've changed the FRIMSource and x265 to the latest available versions.
For full T&B in settings menu - Full-SBS/T&B aspect ratio selection chosen 'Use respectively 1:2 and 2:1' but it set SAR 2:1 in _ENCODE_3D.cmd which is not correct for my 4k LG TV so edited the CMD to SAR 1:2.
Obviously full T&B should be better looking (twice the vertical resolution and so twice the file size). Please check for yourself if interested.
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Old 4th October 2018, 12:44   #1502  |  Link
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OK, thanks. But my active TV doesn't support Full-T&B or Full-SBS, so I'm not the right person to check your samples. Sorry.
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Old 7th October 2018, 22:07   #1503  |  Link
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Program error

Hi, can not find any solution online to this error. Windows 7 x64 Ultimate.

Code:
Encoding movie in 3D
Movie: Goosebumps 2015 1080p 3D CEE Blu-ray AVC DTS-HD MA 5.1-HDClub
Encoding started 2018-10-07 23:03:19,72

c:\Dane\Goosebumps 2015 1080p 3D CEE Blu-ray AVC DTS-HD MA 5.1-HDClub\MKV3D>"C:\
Program Files (x86)\BD3D2MK3D\toolset\avs2yuv.exe"   "__ENCODE_3D_MOVIE.avs" -fr
ames 148560 -o -     | "C:\Program Files (x86)\BD3D2MK3D\toolset\x265_x64.exe" -
-output-depth 10   --crf 16 --preset veryslow   --no-sao   --sar 1:1 --range lim
ited --colorprim bt709 --qpfile chapters_3D.qpfile --frames 148560 --fps 24000/1
001   --output "MKV3D_3D.265" --y4m -

Avisynth error:
ERROR: unknown error (-1),      ..\frim_decode\src\pipeline_decode.cpp (191)

ERROR: unknown error (-1),      ..\frim_decode\src\pipeline_decode.cpp (786)


(__ENCODE_3D_MOVIE.avs, line 21)
x265 [error]: unable to open input file <->
Encoding finished 2018-10-07 23:03:21,25

c:\Dane\Goosebumps 2015 1080p 3D CEE Blu-ray AVC DTS-HD MA 5.1-HDClub\MKV3D>"C:\
Program Files (x86)\BD3D2MK3D\toolset\mkvmerge.exe" @__MUX_3D_OPTIONS.json   | "
C:\Program Files (x86)\BD3D2MK3D\toolset\tee.exe" "MKV3D_3D.mkvmerge.log"
mkvmerge v22.0.0 ('At The End Of The World') 32-bit
Error: The file 'MKV3D_3D.265' could not be opened for reading: open file error.


Press any key to continue . . .
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Old 8th October 2018, 09:30   #1504  |  Link
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Welcome to the Doom9 forums, topjes !

It seems that it's a problem with the FRIM decoder. Since I'm not the programmer of FRIM, I don't know exactly what is the cause of the error, but there are several things to investigate.
  • I have recently learned that the absence of the layout argument in the FRIMSource avisynth command may be the cause of some random crashes. I have already fixed that problem, but the version with the fix is not available yet. So, the first thing to try is to add that argument manually. Edit the __ENCODE_3D_MOVIE.avs file and add layout = "alt" at the end of the FRIMSource command, like this:
    interleaved = FRIMSource("mvc", [...], platform = "", layout = "alt")
    Relaunch __ENCODE_3D_LAUNCHER.cmd to verify if that works. Honestly, I'm not sure, as I have never had any problem without that argument, but try anyway.
  • If you have a recent Intel processor, FRIM tries probably to use the hardware acceleration. It may fail if you don't have the latest Intel drivers properly installed. Try to update them and relaunch __ENCODE_3D_LAUNCHER.cmd.
  • If that doesn't work, force FRIM to use the software decoder. Change the BD3D2MK3D config with Settings -> MVC Decoder -> Hardware Acceleration -> Disabled, and recreate the project.

    If you don't want to recreate the project, you can also edit the __ENCODE_3D_MOVIE.avs file and change the platform argument in the line with interleaved = FRIMSource("mvc", [...], platform = "") to platform = "sw" and relaunch the encoding.
  • If you still get that error, try to use the DGMVCSource decoder : Settings -> MVC Decoder -> Use DGMVCSource.
    Again, try to use also the software decoder. Relaunch the project.

    Or, if you prefer to just modify your current project to test if that works, edit __ENCODE_3D_MOVIE.avs and change this:
    Code:
    LoadPlugin("D:\Tcl\work\BD3D2MK3D\toolset\FRIMSource.dll")
    #LoadPlugin("D:\Tcl\work\BD3D2MK3D\toolset\DGMVCDecode.dll")
    
    [...]
    
    # Load the two video streams (137033 frames per stream)
    interleaved = FRIMSource("mvc", [...], platform = "")
    #interleaved = DGMVCSource([...], mode = "auto") # Old syntax for mode: hw = 0
    to this:
    Code:
    #LoadPlugin("D:\Tcl\work\BD3D2MK3D\toolset\FRIMSource.dll")
    LoadPlugin("D:\Tcl\work\BD3D2MK3D\toolset\DGMVCDecode.dll")
    
    [...]
    
    # Load the two video streams (137033 frames per stream)
    #interleaved = FRIMSource("mvc", [...], platform = "")
    interleaved = DGMVCSource([...], mode = "sw") # Old syntax for mode: hw = 0
    If that work, you can also try with mode = "auto" to use the hardware acceleration.
Can you tell me if it's the first time you use BD3D2MK3D, or if you have already converted some movies successfully ? In the second case, there is perhaps a problem with the BD. Are you sure it has been correctly decrypted ?
Or perhaps you have just updated the Intel drivers and the latest version has some bugs ? (It's not impossible with Intel!)

Anyway, let me know if one of the tricks above was sufficient to solve the problem.

Good luck !
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Old 10th October 2018, 21:12   #1505  |  Link
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Hello Guys, hopefully somebody here can help me.
I have the following problem.
I tried to convert a "3D Bluray" to "3D Mkv" which worked so far, until the last process.
There the program assembles the movie from the video track, the audio track, the subtitle track and the chapters.
Unfortunately, the program doesn't do that for me.
Is it possible to start the last process manually ?
If you need a log file, please tell me which file I need to post.

Greetz Spo0cky ^^
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Old 10th October 2018, 22:46   #1506  |  Link
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Welcome to the Doom9 forums, Spo0cky ^^

BD3D2MK3D should have generated the file __MUX_3D.cmd, that is normally launched automatically after the encoding of the video (unless you have unticked the option "When encoding is finished, mux to MKV file" at the bottom of the last tab.)

Anyway, just double-click it to create the final MKV file.

If that doesn't work, edit that file and add the command "pause" (without the quotes) at the end of the file, and relaunch it. You should see an error message in the command prompt window. Post it here, and I'll try to understand what's going wrong. Also, verify if the file 00800_3D.264 exists in the project folder (00800 is the number of the playlist of the BD, and may be different.)
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Last edited by r0lZ; 10th October 2018 at 22:50.
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Old 19th October 2018, 14:23   #1507  |  Link
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Hi, I initiated conversion of a B&W old iso 3D bluray image ~25GB to TAB mkv +DTS to AC3 on a 45GB free-space folder and the app always warned that there is 0.0 GB left. I gradually increased free space up to 80GB and I was always getting that erroneous warning. Then I realized that this is a bug and I proceeded with the conversion anyway. I set CRF at 21 to get some more detail. After about 6 hours I got the following warning with the corresponding feedback:






I thought that I lost the whole conversion but after I pressed 'close program' it started to multiplex and a few seconds later I got the final conversion -which was non-corrupted, but it was only 2.7GB! I never asked nor I wanted economy in file size, especially of that magnitude -I haven't seen such a small TAB file (running time 1h, 20').

Aside the issues above, out of your experience what settings should I use (on average) when I want to preserve the grain and the subtle detail on a relatively noisy movie? I guess that lowering CRF alone is not enough. I'd also prefer to set the bitrate if possible, not an abstract, non-linear, unintuitive setting like CRF.

Last edited by Roco; 19th October 2018 at 14:32.
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Old 19th October 2018, 16:07   #1508  |  Link
r0lZ
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Hum, not sure why you got the false free-space warning. What version of Windows do you use ?

For the crash of the encoder, I'm not sure too, but it might be fixed in the version I will release soon.

The final file size is strange indeed, especially if you have encoded a noisy movie. Normally, with CRF 21, I expect a file size around 6 GB, or more if the movie is particularly noisy. Your movie is very short, but it's strange anyway. Are you sure the encoding is really finished and you can play the final credits up to the end ?

I have read somewhere that lowering the CRF by 3 has the effect of approximately doubling the bitrate of the video track. But take in mind that the final file size depends also of other factors, like the preset. A slower preset compresses better and/or has less artifacts.

Preserving the grain is always a delicate operation, as it's the first thing that the encoder removes (or simplifies at best), so you need either a very low CRF, or perhaps you should try the "grain" tune. (I don't use it myself, so I don't know if it is efficient.)

If you want to obtain precisely a final bitrate or file size, just change the Mode to 2-pass, and select either the target video bitrate of the final size of the MKV file (including the audio tracks and other overheads). However, you should know that, in addition to be much slower, 2-pass encoding gives ALWAYS a slightly less good quality than CRF for the same bitrate, due to the additional constraint. ABR (aka 1-pass) is really bad, but if the second pass can distribute almost correctly the bitrate, it cannot be perfect. It's why I prefer to always encode in CRF, without any constraint. and I reserves 2-pass to when the final file size is really important, like when I want to copy the movie on a DVD.

And I have to disagree with you. CRF is MUCH MORE intuitive than 2-pass. Because it computes exactly the best result given the movie you are encoding. You will therefore obtain a very low final bitrate for a movie easy to compress (such as an animated movie in computer graphics without any noise), and a bigger file size for a difficult, noisy action movie. Giving the same bitrate to that two opposed kind of movies is simply a nonsense, and it is very difficult for a human being to know what bitrate is really suitable for a specific movie. The CRF mode computes it automatically for you, and usually, it does it well. Now, in your precise case, I can understand that you don't trust it. :-(
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Last edited by r0lZ; 19th October 2018 at 16:12.
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Old 20th October 2018, 11:31   #1509  |  Link
Roco
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I'm using Windows 7.

In my case I also have a real constraint that it is directly related to the bitrate: my 3D TV has a limit of the bitrate it can playback (like all other TVs obviously) which is about 25-27Mbps. Imagine spending two days for a conversion and then discover that the bitrate is above that limit and it is stuttering or worse.
If the movie is noisy + too long, I could use the highest allowable bitrate eg 24Mb/s and be assured that I will get the best quality I can (for a given preset/encoding time investment).

For such cases of physical constraints, I think a high bit-rate limit would be a very useful feature while using CRF -but obviously that will have to be implemented by the x264 developer guys.

Anyway, is it possible to make BD3D2MK3D encode just a tiny part of the movie -preferably from the middle to avoid the credits, in order to test and decide the best settings?


P.S. Despite the difficulties, your tool is still very helpful, thanks and congrats.
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Old 20th October 2018, 12:01   #1510  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roco View Post
[...] I think a high bit-rate limit would be a very useful feature while using CRF -but obviously that will have to be implemented by the x264 developer guys.
You can actually specify the maximum bitrate, either yourself in the "additional options" field in the last tab, or simply by specifying the level, again in the last tab. I use always the level 4.1, that forces the maximum bitrate to 62500 and is suitable for most TVs. (A BD Player is limited to level 4.0, but there is little difference with 4.1. Levels 5.0 and more are necessary for Full-SBS or Full-T&B.) Note that the buffer size is also automatically limited to 78125 when using level 4.1. Take care: specifying the level alone in the command line is NOT sufficient to enforce that limits. You have to add the corresponding limitations in the command line, but BD3D2MK3D does it automatically for you, so you don't have to worry. The command for my encodings at level 4.1 looks like this:
Code:
"D:\BD3D2MK3D\toolset\avs2yuv.exe" ^
  "__ENCODE_3D_MOVIE.avs" -frames 147552 -o - ^
  | "D:\BD3D2MK3D\toolset\x264_x64.exe" --output-depth 8 ^
  --crf 20 --preset slow --level 4.1 --vbv-bufsize 78125 --vbv-maxrate 62500 ^
  --sar 1:1 --range tv --colormatrix bt709 ^
  --frame-packing 3 --qpfile chapters_3D.qpfile --frames 147552 --fps 24000/1001 ^
  --output "01113_3D.264" --demuxer y4m --stdin y4m -
You should know what is the maximum level (and not bitrate) that your TV supports, and use it for your encodings, and you will be safe, even with a very low CRF.

Note also that to be absolutely sure that your encoding will be OK for all TVs, you can also tick the "BD Compatible" option, that enforces some additional parameters so that your encoding will be limited to what a 1080p BD is supposed to contain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roco View Post
Anyway, is it possible to make BD3D2MK3D encode just a tiny part of the movie -preferably from the middle to avoid the credits, in order to test and decide the best settings?
Unfortunately, the currently available free MVC decoders (FRIMSource and DGMVCSource) used internally by BD3D2MK3D are unable to seek to a specific frame in the movie. Therefore, your encoding must begin with frame 0. But if you wish, you can limit the encoding to a certain number of frames. Just edit the two numbers of frames in the command (highlighted in green in the example above). However, you should know that the whole audio and subtitle tracks will be muxed, and therefore most players will consider that the movie is complete, although of course you will be unable to play past the cut point.

Personally, I did most of my tests with a couple of short movies, and I don't have to check the parameters with each new encode.
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Old 22nd October 2018, 22:58   #1511  |  Link
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Thanks for the info, I'm using --frames to test the settings for the first few minutes.
The level is not mentioned in the user manual but since level 4.0 is limited to 25Mbits which is very close to the limit I have experienced, that must be it.

The TV definitely doesn't support full TAB/SBS (via a usb drive). Ironically it does playback 3D blurays compressed with makemkv though (full 3D res), but they stutter as they are higher bitrate except a couple of cases (initially the screen is black and it works after I select TAB).
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Old 23rd October 2018, 09:14   #1512  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roco View Post
The TV definitely doesn't support full TAB/SBS (via a usb drive). Ironically it does playback 3D blurays [...]
Full-SBS of Full-TAB requires a buffer twice as large as the 1080p resolution, plus two buffers to store respectively the left and right images. It's why most 1080p TVs do not support Full-SBS/TAB. In the other hand, a BD player (or a 3D MKV made with MakeMKV) serves the images one at a time, and therefore they do not require the additional double-sized buffer. (BD3D2MK3D can create also Frame Sequential MKV, where the images are in full resolution, and there is no need to split them since they are stored alone, but unfortunately, only a few TVs support that mode. Pity!)
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Old 23rd October 2018, 10:45   #1513  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r0lZ View Post
In the other hand, a BD player [...] serves the images one at a time
Isn't 3D in HDMI basically SBS?
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Old 23rd October 2018, 16:19   #1514  |  Link
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I'm not sure, but I don't think so. The images are probably served one at a time, in alternance. Why should the player combine them in SBS to let the TV split them right after ?
Also, AFAIK, SBS (and T&B) are non-official standards, invented by the users, and not defined by the industry.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 16:34   #1515  |  Link
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Maybe I was mistaken. I thought 3D in HDMI was always SBS. But they support different variants according to the HDMI website.
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Old 25th October 2018, 11:31   #1516  |  Link
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BD3D2MK3D v1.8

This version is mainly an update of the third party applications, but it contains also two attempts to fix little bugs.
Quote:
v1.8 (October 25, 2018)
- Changed the (wrong) link to BDSup2Sub++ in Info -> BDSup2Sub++ Version.
- Added the layout parameter to the FRIMSource avisynth syntax, to possibly fix some random crashes of the decoder.
- Fixed Avisynth version in Help -> About, from 1.5 to 1.6
- Attempt to fix a bug with free disc space wrongly reported as 0 KB.
- Updated x264 to the latest version (0.157.2935)
- Updated x265 to the latest version (2.9+2)
- Updated the MkvToolnix exes to the latest version (28.1.0)
Enjoy! BD3D2MK3D.7z
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Old 26th October 2018, 20:50   #1517  |  Link
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r0lZ! Ah, 'tis been many a season since I was last on here. I take full credit for the initial suggestion of allowing full-SBS long ago, and many thanks to you for implementing it as asked. It's good to see you're still working on this tool after so long... I've decided to go encode my backlog of ISOs so my CPU's gonna be busy for the next 2-3 weeks

I've started using x265 but it's disconcerting when a full-SBS movie comes in at 6-8Gb - I'm using a decent CRF (18) so I guess I'll just have to trust it ("future" technology is scary as I get older!)

Anywho I hope you enjoy maintaining the tool and many thanks for doing so! Have a good one.

Cheers
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Old 26th October 2018, 23:07   #1518  |  Link
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Hi, zaphodalive! Yes, I'm still working on it, although it is now stable and doesn't require much work any more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zaphodalive View Post
I've started using x265 but it's disconcerting when a full-SBS movie comes in at 6-8Gb - I'm using a decent CRF (18) so I guess I'll just have to trust it ("future" technology is scary as I get older!)
h265 is indeed extremely efficient, and small file sizes are not abnormal, especially for clean movies in computer graphics, easy to compress. You can certainly divide the size of the same movie encoded with x264 by 2 for the same, or even a better quality. Anyway, as I have already written many times, trust your eyes. If the result is pleasant, don't think that a low bitrate is bad.

Good work with BD3D2MK3D !
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Old 28th October 2018, 11:10   #1519  |  Link
deank
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Hey r0lZ!

Thanks for BD3D2MK3D!

I have some interesting information to share after I tried a lot of different formats with my android TV. I wanted to use a native android app (in my case Movian) to play 3D content on the tv and since no external HDMI-connected-player is involved I cannot use the HDMI 1.4+ 1920x2205 frame-packing format. I had to chose from one of the HALF SBS/TAB formats, because I had some weird issues with the FULL SBS/TAB.

Anyway, my TV is Sony Bravia 4k 2015 (KD-55S8505C) with active 3D, running Android TV 7 and it supports H264/AVC Level 5.2 3840x2160 so I decided to encode 4K SBS which is 1920x2160 for each eye (vertically stretching each frame). During playback the TV stretches each frame to 3840x2160 (or shrinks it to 1920x1080) and this gives me back two full 1920x1080p frames in 3D. It is kind of a hybrid version of Half/Full SBS/TAB.

Code:
StackHorizontal(BicubicResize(Left, 1920, 2160, 0, 0.5), BicubicResize(Right, 1920, 2160, 0, 0.5))
AssumeFPS("ntsc_film")
I encoded it at 20MBps bitrate (level 5.1) and compared it to the quality of a true frame-packed video from an external player (in my case Raspberry Pi3, which sends the original blu-ray AVC+MVC in 1920x2205 via HDMI). I can say that the result is perfect and I can enjoy full 1080p/24hz for each eye on Android TV.

I know it is a very specific case, but may be there are people out there who would like to use only the TV without an external player (no extra hdmi/cables/devices).

And another note on using HorizontalResizeBy2 (http://avisynth.nl/index.php/ReduceBy2):

Quote:
ReduceBy2 filters do not preserve the position of the image center. It shifts color planes by half of pixel
I'm not sure how much it affects the 3D perception (if at all).

Quote:
If you are enlarging your video, you will get sharper results with BicubicResize than with BilinearResize. However, if you are shrinking it, you may prefer BilinearResize as it performs some antialiasing.
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Last edited by deank; 28th October 2018 at 11:26.
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Old 28th October 2018, 11:45   #1520  |  Link
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Interesting information, but honestly, I'm not sure I like the idea of upscaling the 3D full-HD to UHD. IMO, the good way to preserve the quality is to encode in Full-SBS or Full-T&B. Upscaling introduces always some artifacts, even with the best (and slow!) resize method. And, of course, it requires more disc space, or a less good encoding quality. I understand that Full-SBS is not supported by your equipment, but as you wrote, it's a very specific case. So, I don't think I will implement that method in BD3D2MK3D, as it can also be confusing for most users. Anyway, it is easy to do the modification yourself, as you have explained.

For the ReduceBy2 method, I have already explained that it's IMO the best compromise. Don't forget that the resolution is divided exactly be 2 (in one direction), and that means that merging two pixels to form a single pixel is sufficient. It's extremely easy, and a rough and rapid algorithm is largely sufficient for a good quality. And the shift of the color planes by 1/2 pixel is so small that it is certainly un-noticeable. Bicubic and Bilinear resizers are certainly better when you have to shrink by a factor different than 2, but they are probably not really better to divide the resolution by 2. And of course, it is easy for a powerful user to edit the avisynth script if he really wants to use another filter. So, here again, I will not change that.

Thanks anyway for the information. I wrote BD3D2MK3D with peoples like you in mind. The program creates the basis so that newbies can obtain a good result immediately, without having to learn a lot of things, but the app creates the various scripts with a lot of comments so that power users can modify them easily to suit their needs.
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