Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Hardware & Software > Software players

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 14th November 2013, 12:46   #20901  |  Link
madshi
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,140
Quote:
Originally Posted by sneaker_ger View Post
I was indeed thinking about just adding an additional queue for the fade and in turn increase its length. I didn't think about the RAM and thought you just didn't feel like adding yet another queue or didn't want to make it too long. I wasn't affected, just wondering.

Well, I thought queues are there to ensure fluid playback, i.e. having some security net/buffer for avoiding dropped frames. Resetting a queue fully or partly/reprocessing frames means decreasing that security and results in more dropouts on average even if most users aren't affected and it can be worked-around/turned off easily. Maybe I'm missing something.
You're missing how important GPU RAM is. If you have GPU RAM to spare, you can turn up the GPU queues to insane lengths. If you're short on GPU RAM, your preferred solution won't work, either. To sum up:

Your preferred solution:
(1) introduce a new fade queue
(2) increase queue size for decoder, IVTC, deinterlace, upload, DXVA scaling and fade queues by 5 frames
(3) this results in the render queue always staying at 15-16/16
(4) this solution is technically quite complicated, which a new queue, and different queue sizes for different GPU queues
(5) this solution requires higher GPU RAM consumption

The current madVR implementation:
(1) no changes at all to queue/render design
(2) no increase in GPU RAM consumption
(3) if a fade is detected (and only then and only for a short time) the render queue goes down to 11/16

Your solution only works if you have GPU RAM to spare. But if you *DO* have GPU RAM to spare, you could also do this:

The current madVR implementation with 5 frames longer GPU queues:
(1) no changes at all to queue/render design
(2) this solution requires higher GPU RAM consumption
(3) if a fade is detected, the render queue goes down to 16/21, otherwise it stays at 20-21/21 all the time

So what is better? Having the render queue at 15-16/16 all the time? Or having it at 20-21/21 during 99.9% of the movie runtime, and it dropping to 16/21 during 0.1% of the time? Comparing your solution with 16/16 all the time, to my solution with GPU queue size increased to 21, my solution seems much better to me. It has a better queue saturation per GPU RAM ratio. And a much simpler design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyral View Post
I currently use the sRGB profile on my monitor and the default settings in Windows Color management (No ICC profile). I've set "this display is already calibrated" (while it's not) with BT.709 and pure power curve 2.20 in the calibration tab. However, some guides about calibration advice to set pure power curve to 2.40 with sRGB. Is it true or not ?
Which gamma curve you select there makes no difference unless you activate gamma processing (IIRC).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyral View Post
Another question : should I keep my actual settings or change for "disable calibration controls for this display" in the calibration tab and enable gamma processing in the color & gamma tab ?
Disabling calibration controls means that madVR will not convert DVDs to BT.709 gamut. The difference is small. But keeping your current settings might be the better choice.
madshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2013, 13:01   #20902  |  Link
bacondither
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Sweden
Posts: 128
I haven't found the new fading algorithm useful i any case, but if someone have a clip where the "strength during fade/in out" is useful please post it.
The fading detection seems to flicker on and off in scenes withouth fading or stay constant on in other scenes or after a fade. It must be hard for a algorithm to decide that with good results.

Last edited by bacondither; 14th November 2013 at 13:14.
bacondither is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2013, 13:58   #20903  |  Link
Werewolfy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Huh!? Where did you get *that* impression from? If you're talking about the reported frame drops, that's not a performance problem, but a simple logic bug in the current build, which is already fixed in my sources, and which btw never introduced any visible stuttering. The simple bug was that a smooth motion blended frame which should have been deleted by the fade detection wasn't deleted. So there suddenly were two blended frames for the same situation. So one was dropped, without causing a visual problem. So the only real "problem" was that the OSD reported a dropped frame. But the dropped frame was superfluous, anyway.
The issue I mentioned earlier does create stuttering, this is how I noticed it in 24hz. It's pretty obvious during panning shots. It's not a performance problem, even if I use Bicubic instead of Jinc for upscaling it doesn't change anything.
Werewolfy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2013, 14:04   #20904  |  Link
madshi
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,140
Well, in any case, it's already fixed in my sources.
madshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2013, 14:19   #20905  |  Link
bacondither
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Sweden
Posts: 128
This is a short sample recorded with fraps and the fade in/out set ridicilous high so you can se when it activates.
sample

Last edited by bacondither; 14th November 2013 at 14:25.
bacondither is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2013, 14:37   #20906  |  Link
madshi
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,140
Quote:
Originally Posted by bacondither View Post
I haven't found the new fading algorithm useful i any case, but if someone have a clip where the "strength during fade/in out" is useful please post it.
It should be useful whenever you have a movie where "low" may not fully fix all banding problems. In that situation having a higher debanding strength during fades should help making fades more stable, while not hurting image detail in all other scenes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bacondither View Post
The fading detection seems to flicker on and off in scenes withouth fading or stay constant on in other scenes or after a fade. It must be hard for a algorithm to decide that with good results.
The hard part is making the detection work without losing too much CPU and GPU performance. But I've already implemented some improvements in my sources that seem to avoid "false positives" quite nicely. So the problem you've noticed now might already be solved in the next build.
madshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2013, 14:56   #20907  |  Link
jpavic019
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1
madvr help

Can i use madvr as video render in mpchc at the highest settings(Chroma upscaling- jinc 3 taps (AR), image upscaling-jinc 3 taps(AR) and image downscaling-catmul rom (AR,LL) ) on my pc without any sttutering and lagging?
my pc specs are: : CPU- Intel Core i3 2120 @ 3.30GHz
Motherboard: Asus P8H61-MX R2.0
Gpu: MSI Radeon Hd 7750 1GB DDR 5 (R7750-1GD5/OC)
Ram : 8 gb
I mostly watch 1080p and 720p movies
jpavic019 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2013, 17:23   #20908  |  Link
madshi
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,140
You should be able to, at least when using fullscreen exclusive mode. Maybe you could run into trouble when using DXVA deinterlacing, but that only applies to interlaced material. And for movies you can force on film mode, which will make everything run smooth again. DXVA deinterlacing results in double framerate (60p output) which doubles the requires GPU power. That's why it's extra demanding. As long as you stay with 24p/30p progressive content, I think your GPU should do the highest settings just fine.
madshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2013, 17:26   #20909  |  Link
leeperry
Kid for Today
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,477
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Yes, but with a rather bad quality. On a quick check I think if the 6 zones noticeably differ with that PS script, you might actually see the zone boundaries. Furthermore that script doesn't work in linear light, so you'll get discoloration in pixel on/off test patterns. Finally, the convergence correction seems to be done with bilinear filtering which will soften up the image. madVR's convergence correction should not have any of these problems (I hope).
Oh.......would you have the same negative remarks to make about those two scripts please?

Mirroring:
Code:
sampler s0 : register(s0);

float4 main(float2 tex : TEXCOORD0) : COLOR
{
  return tex2D(s0, float2(1 - tex.x, tex.y));
}
Flipping:
Code:
sampler s0 : register(s0);

float4 main(float2 tex : TEXCOORD0) : COLOR
{
  return tex2D(s0, float2(tex.x, 1 - tex.y));
}
leeperry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2013, 17:39   #20910  |  Link
madshi
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,140
Those should be fine.
madshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2013, 19:07   #20911  |  Link
e-t172
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 589
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyral View Post
Hi everyone,
I currently use the sRGB profile on my monitor and the default settings in Windows Color management (No ICC profile). I've set "this display is already calibrated" (while it's not) with BT.709 and pure power curve 2.20 in the calibration tab. However, some guides about calibration advice to set pure power curve to 2.40 with sRGB. Is it true or not ?
No. You should keep it that way. If you don't have any information about your monitor's color response you have to assume that it at least tries to get as close to sRGB as possible, and the best settings to use with sRGB are the ones you chose.
e-t172 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2013, 21:05   #20912  |  Link
dansrfe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
According to your log switching to exclusive mode worked just fine. Can you clarify "stopped working"? Some more details might help.
False alarm. The problem was related to NVIDIA GeForce Experience interfering with the custom refresh rates I had set with CRU. The custom refresh rates wouldn't show up in the monitor's device properties yet it would show up in NVIDIA's control panel. After uninstalling GeForce Experience everything works as expected when switching to FSE.
dansrfe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th November 2013, 00:50   #20913  |  Link
turbojet
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,840
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
So when you say "It doesn't appear noticeably faster for me" what do you mean exactly? That the face doesn't appear faster for you with Werewolfy's video sample, when using "medium" instead of "high" debanding for fade in/outs? Or are you talking about the madVR rendering times? Or what?

The feedback I was hoping to get is whether I should use "medium" or "high" as a default option for debanding during fade ins/outs.
The face doesn't noticeably appear faster for me but there is a bit more detail when frame stepping with 'medium' vs. 'high' but it's also not noticeable to me during playback.

Concerning fades there's many in this clip which are handled fine but the one at 5 seconds has a lot of banding. Is there anything that can be done with this?

Also does anyone else have issues with playback starting before a display mode change (60 to 72hz for example) is finished? Would this be a madvr or a player issue?
__________________
PC: FX-8320 GTS250 HTPC: G1610 GTX650
PotPlayer/MPC-BE LAVFilters MadVR-Bicubic75AR/Lanczos4AR/Lanczos4AR LumaSharpen -Strength0.9-Pattern3-Clamp0.1-OffsetBias2.0
turbojet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th November 2013, 01:51   #20914  |  Link
Asmodian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 4,406
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbojet View Post
Also does anyone else have issues with playback starting before a display mode change (60 to 72hz for example) is finished? Would this be a madvr or a player issue?
That actually sounds like a display issue to me. Does your display take a while to show a picture after a refresh rate change? I have one monitor that takes at least three times longer to display a picture after a refresh rate change than my other screens and I often hear the audio before it starts displaying a picture. As far as the computer is concerned the change was finished a long time ago.
Asmodian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th November 2013, 05:53   #20915  |  Link
dansrfe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,210
Does dithering need to be disabled for calibration because I see faint blocking on all color patches, distributed across the entire patch. It may be affecting the i1 Display Pro's accuracy. This is using the command line procedure in post 2 of the madVR/ArgyllCMS thread on AVS.

Last edited by dansrfe; 16th November 2013 at 06:07.
dansrfe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th November 2013, 14:02   #20916  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,903
these blocks aren't dithering noise they are so huge on my tn panel... 5x5 or so i make a screen later.

edit: this is not on screenshoots. but i was able to record it (very strange)

http://abload.de/img/madtpg01.mp4_snapshot3ef7p.png the dots are huge on a 6 or 7 bit dithering panel like my asus vg248. this screen was done with "don't use dithering".

Last edited by huhn; 16th November 2013 at 16:10.
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th November 2013, 14:24   #20917  |  Link
sneaker_ger
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,565
@madshi
Thanks for the detailed answer. There's one thing I'm still uncertain concerning the re-rendering and the fade detection: at which point does it actually take place? Does madVR have to re-request frames from the decoder or does this not happen as its own decoder queue is unaffected?
sneaker_ger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th November 2013, 17:08   #20918  |  Link
LigH
German doom9/Gleitz SuMo
 
LigH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Germany, rural Altmark
Posts: 6,751
@ huhn:

The system "Screenshot" function [PrtScr] only captures the desktop, but many renderers instead use a memory area distant to the desktop (e.g. the "Hardware Overlay" or an offscreen DirectShow canvas). The player provided capture function will take a picture before it is rendered. You may have to either use an accelleration API aware tool, or really use a camera...
__________________

New German Gleitz board
MediaFire: x264 | x265 | VPx | AOM | Xvid
LigH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th November 2013, 17:20   #20919  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,903
the screen is showing the problem.

i took it with openbroadcast software and game capture.

i can't see it on my tv right now but on my tn panel display is not possible to overview this...
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th November 2013, 21:20   #20920  |  Link
leeperry
Kid for Today
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,477
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
Yes, now it will give you BT.1886 without elevating the 0 black step, thus not sacrificing contrast ratio
using ArgyllCMS1.61...uncalibrated, D65 but funky gamma-land:
Quote:
Black level = 0.04 cd/mē
50% level = 29.87 cd/mē
White level = 149.57 cd/mē
Aprox. gamma = 2.32
Contrast ratio = 3419:1
dispcal -v -yl -t6500 -G2.4 -f0 -qm test:
Quote:
Black level = 0.05 cd/mē
50% level = 31.18 cd/mē
White level = 146.09 cd/mē
Aprox. gamma = 2.23
Contrast ratio = 2884:1
a lighter gamma and +0.01 black, I was hoping for a darker gamma tbh

This said I get nearly perfect gamma now:

I also wish there were a way to build an mVR-compatible 3DLUT out of a .cal file but apparently this isn't possible.

Last edited by leeperry; 19th November 2013 at 00:57.
leeperry is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:43.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.