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Old 16th February 2019, 03:30   #54761  |  Link
SamuriHL
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It's the tonemapping part that's the issue. If you have a display with a high enough max nit, then you'll not see a lot of tonemapping being done. The lower the max nit of the display, the more compressed the highlights need to become. How they do that can vary wildly between displays. Some are decent at it and you'll hardly notice. Others are...less so. NONE of them are as good as madvr has become. When you say there's not much overall luminance lost, that's not always entirely true. madshi spent some time doing luminance recovery but it's a trade off like most everything. In any case, people are able to fine tune the settings to their liking depending on their preference. Some like more dynamic. Others prefer more clipping. Fun times!
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Old 16th February 2019, 04:54   #54762  |  Link
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You can call it luminance recovery, but that's just detail management, more like sharpening if not exactly the same. That doesn't affect the overall luminance at all. The biggest difference could come from choosing a very different knee point, but that's no very likely, and even then the differences would be minimal.
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Old 16th February 2019, 10:21   #54763  |  Link
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HDR for 100 nits projectors? They can sell it but it's just a contradiction. So yes, clipping at 100 nits shoud be the only reasonable option.
did you ever try this?
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Old 16th February 2019, 13:33   #54764  |  Link
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HI SamuriHL, I also have GTX1060 and an LG OLED.

Do you use ToneMapping ? When applying ToneMapping for me, rendering for goes from 30ms to 55-60ms and makes it unwatchable

Only when I downscale a lot of settings (Chroma from NGU High to low, Image Upscaling to NGU low & downscaling to Spline, it is somewhat acceptable ( 30-35ms )

And strangely enough, I get the best values with 800 nits, while my 2015/16 OLED is rated at 540 nits

If you do use ToneMapping, would you mind sharing your settings ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
It's the tonemapping part that's the issue. If you have a display with a high enough max nit, then you'll not see a lot of tonemapping being done. The lower the max nit of the display, the more compressed the highlights need to become. How they do that can vary wildly between displays. Some are decent at it and you'll hardly notice. Others are...less so. NONE of them are as good as madvr has become. When you say there's not much overall luminance lost, that's not always entirely true. madshi spent some time doing luminance recovery but it's a trade off like most everything. In any case, people are able to fine tune the settings to their liking depending on their preference. Some like more dynamic. Others prefer more clipping. Fun times!
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Last edited by svengun; 16th February 2019 at 14:56.
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Old 16th February 2019, 15:29   #54765  |  Link
Warner306
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Originally Posted by madjock View Post
The principal with SDR is set whites and blacks, but with HDR its not really talked about, so when we say about tone mapping of TVs, where is the starting point ? As surely we need one ?

Maybe I am missing something here as 99% of people will not be using madVR, so how do the rest of the users set up an HDR TV.
Setting up an HDR display for HDR content isn't really that different than setting up a display for SDR output. Only the transfer function has changed, but the white balance and white point function the same and can sometimes be shared with the SDR picture mode of some displays.

Some Rules:

- Brightness and Contrast on many displays shouldn't be touched because they are used by the display to set the bottom and top of the tone curve;
- You can adjust the white balance, but not all HDR displays will allow you to improve PQ EOTF tracking because it may again effect the tracking of the tone curve;
- On displays that don't allow for adjustment to the PQ EOTF, it is advised to use the 2-point RGB High and RGB Low controls to improve the white balance;
- On displays that do allow for adjustment to the PQ EOTF, you can use the full 10-20 point grayscale controls to dial-in both the white balance and PQ tracking;
- The peak brightness or backlight of the display should most often be set to its highest value;
- Based on the HDR picture mode selected, some displays will change the tone mapping method used (e.g. clipping vs. tone mapping);
- Color temperature and Tint should be selected in the same way as SDR content (e.g. Color 50, Tint 50, Warm2, etc.).

Bright HDR displays don't usually have a lot of work to do with tone mapping beyond the brightest specular highlights, but when tone mapping is applied, the display is supposed to tone map 0-100 nits as little as possible, and preferably not at all.

A projector will have to tone map much of 0-100 nits at all times because it needs likely double or triple the brightness to have enough headroom above 100 nits to avoid this. When HDR content is graded, heavy tone mapping of 0-100 nits likely isn't taken into consideration, which is why some HDR movies end up darker than others when projected. Consistent brightness across all sources is more challenging with protected HDR than flat panel TVs, especially when you are consistently lowering the APL of the source.

Last edited by Warner306; 16th February 2019 at 15:44.
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Old 16th February 2019, 15:33   #54766  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Alexkral View Post
HDR for 100 nits projectors? They can sell it but it's just a contradiction. So yes, clipping at 100 nits shoud be the only reasonable option.
As huhn said, clipping at 100 nits is impossible. The image would end up a washed out mess with far too many pixels clipping at the gamut edges. You have to apply a harsh tone curve to the entire range.

HDR at 100 nits is not really HDR, but a good tone curve, like the one used by madVR, can make it look attractive and provide visibly more contrast than SDR at the same brightness.
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Old 16th February 2019, 16:35   #54767  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
a good tone curve, like the one used by madVR, can make it look attractive and provide visibly more contrast than SDR at the same brightness.
Did you mean provide visibly more dynamic range?
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Old 16th February 2019, 17:01   #54768  |  Link
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Did you mean provide visibly more dynamic range?
Probably not, unless you are using a definition of dynamic range that also works for contrast. What is the difference, exactly? You never really increase the dynamic range or contrast of the screen, obviously, but the image looks like it has more contrast.

I don't quite understand the strong interest in HDR -> SDR myself. Colorists could have graded this way for a long time, but they didn't. I find that very compressed HDR usually looks worse than the SDR release most of the time, in the same way "vivid" modes do on displays. It pops more but it doesn't look as good. Real HDR (1000+ nits) is great, no complaints there.

I suppose standard SDR is mastered for 0-100 and this very compressed HDR should be better for 0-300? I use 100 nits for SDR so maybe that is why I don't like it. Or maybe it is just that most of my HDR content also includes an SDR version which is better mastered for an SDR display?
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Old 16th February 2019, 19:07   #54769  |  Link
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Originally Posted by svengun View Post
If you do use ToneMapping, would you mind sharing your settings ?
I replied to your PM. Hopefully that helps!
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Old 16th February 2019, 19:33   #54770  |  Link
Warner306
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Probably not, unless you are using a definition of dynamic range that also works for contrast. What is the difference, exactly? You never really increase the dynamic range or contrast of the screen, obviously, but the image looks like it has more contrast.
There is actually a difference. You are consistently lowering the brightness of reference white, which creates contrast between bright and dark detail. Digital photography has mastered the art of tone mapping high dynamic range images to standard dynamic range images for years. HDR video is using many of the same techniques and formulas that are already known to work well.

You would be surprised how many projector owners at AVS Forums love the HDR -> SDR tone mapping of madVR when projected. At 150 nits, I do think a lot of content looks better than a very restricted SDR range of 100 nits, provided the tone curve holds up and properly represents the bottom and top of the range without crushing or washing out the image too much.

I still don't know if projector owners understand that 100 nit SDR content already maxed out the actual available dynamic range of a projector. I think the sentiment is towards replicating the Dolby Cinema approach to HDR that uses 107 nits. But you need a projector with a low black level and great contrast to make this limited range HDR work and have any impact.

Then it is more about improved contrast than dynamic range. But the current PQ HDR format is using far more steps than 107 nits, which will harm image quality no matter how you tone map the image. I think they fail to realize that range compression must represent the contrast of the entire 1,000 nit source and not just the 100 nits they have to work with. You can't get around squishing the source in places to make the image fit the frame. I like it, but you can't expect a perfect result at all times across all movies when applying that much range compression. There are local tone curves that allow you to tweak the shadows, midtones and highlights independently, but they are probably too slow for madVR and even they would require some compromise somewhere.

Last edited by Warner306; 16th February 2019 at 19:49.
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Old 16th February 2019, 19:56   #54771  |  Link
Alexkral
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
did you ever try this?
I can imagine the result, what I mean is what Warner306 says, anything else can't really be considered HDR (nor clipping at 100 nits).
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Old 16th February 2019, 20:08   #54772  |  Link
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Is there any way to restore the settings.bin file That I backed up?
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Old 16th February 2019, 20:59   #54773  |  Link
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MadVR FHD 8bit SDR vs UHD 10bit HDR to SDR comparison

I have red several threads on the HDR to SDR / UHD 10 bit to FHD comparison threads and finally decided to give it a go as there is more and more UHD 10bit HDR content.
After some learning curv with the latest build of madVR and testing the "Mehanik HDR10 test patterns", I have tuned my settings and made a comparison of the several frames of different versions ( FHD / UHD 10bit HDR ) of the same great action movie " Mission: Impossible - Fallout " .
I have also tested another movies and my conclusion is unequivocal - I definitely like the compressed UHD 10bit HDR to SDR by madVR in comparison to the FHD 8bit version on my rig. I watch movies in the dedicated HT room, small but all black walls and ceiling on 96" CARADA screen with good old JVC DLA-X30 that provides a very good black levels. The lamp has made around 2500 hours run, but still good with 100nits target on madVR . The pj was calibrated a while ago with my old MONACO XR DTP94 colorimeter for REC. 709 2.2 curve and since then I am using the i1pro spectro but waiting till I order a new lamp to get it re calibrated.

Since I have been looking for any detailed A/B images on the web and could not fine anything detailed and interesting (sorry if I missed something), I made for you a single frame comparison and uploaded it on my web site with the before/after view including the madVR settings data running on GTX 1070ti. Some frames have more obvious differences the others have less, yet as mentioned the UHD content compressed by the madVR has more clarity as a result with more details in near whites ( low highlight recovery is applied ), deeper and punchier colors with much more detailes and contrast darks that adds more depth to the picture. The textures are a bit sharper as well.

Enjoy and let me know what you think.

here

hover with the mouse over the screenshots

Last edited by IceB; 16th February 2019 at 21:00. Reason: additional info
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Old 16th February 2019, 22:09   #54774  |  Link
Warner306
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I also prefer the HDR images. Even at 100 target nits, the improvement in contrast is noticeable. Maybe the only complaint I'd have is it looks like the gamma is ever so slightly raised in the HDR shots, which you can notice in some of the changes to some color tones. But none of the images look overbright.
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Old 16th February 2019, 22:34   #54775  |  Link
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Originally Posted by svengun View Post
HI SamuriHL, I also have GTX1060 and an LG OLED.

Do you use ToneMapping ? When applying ToneMapping for me, rendering for goes from 30ms to 55-60ms and makes it unwatchable

Only when I downscale a lot of settings (Chroma from NGU High to low, Image Upscaling to NGU low & downscaling to Spline, it is somewhat acceptable ( 30-35ms )

And strangely enough, I get the best values with 800 nits, while my 2015/16 OLED is rated at 540 nits

If you do use ToneMapping, would you mind sharing your settings ?

you're upscaling 4k to 8k ngu then downscaling to 4k ? < you shouldn't do this >

Because ngu will only touch chroma upscaling on 4k to 4k, LUMA is 1:1, so whatever ngu setting you put for LUMA upscaling doesn't affect performance


On my 1060, for 4K HDR, I have it on NGU medium (Chroma), w/ Tone Mapping to SDR + highlight recovery, it runs ~22-30ms. Luma is 1:1 untouched.

My 1060 runs at 2088mhz, it can go to 2112mhz, but it doesn't always auto boost to that high because madvr is not a saturating load at 22-30ms


For 1920x1080 upscale, setting is NGU high chroma, NGU high luma.
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Last edited by tp4tissue; 16th February 2019 at 22:49.
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Old 16th February 2019, 23:58   #54776  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
I also prefer the HDR images. Even at 100 target nits, the improvement in contrast is noticeable. Maybe the only complaint I'd have is it looks like the gamma is ever so slightly raised in the HDR shots, which you can notice in some of the changes to some color tones. But none of the images look overbright.

The contrast is static no ? So, whatever tone mapping we do at 100nit , it's trading crush for highlights ?
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Old 17th February 2019, 00:00   #54777  |  Link
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Originally Posted by IceB View Post
I have red several threads on the HDR to SDR / UHD 10 bit to FHD comparison threads and finally decided to give it a go as there is more and more UHD 10bit HDR content.
After some learning curv with the latest build of madVR and testing the "Mehanik HDR10 test patterns", I have tuned my settings and made a comparison of the several frames of different versions ( FHD / UHD 10bit HDR ) of the same great action movie " Mission: Impossible - Fallout " .
I have also tested another movies and my conclusion is unequivocal - I definitely like the compressed UHD 10bit HDR to SDR by madVR in comparison to the FHD 8bit version on my rig. I watch movies in the dedicated HT room, small but all black walls and ceiling on 96" CARADA screen with good old JVC DLA-X30 that provides a very good black levels. The lamp has made around 2500 hours run, but still good with 100nits target on madVR . The pj was calibrated a while ago with my old MONACO XR DTP94 colorimeter for REC. 709 2.2 curve and since then I am using the i1pro spectro but waiting till I order a new lamp to get it re calibrated.

Since I have been looking for any detailed A/B images on the web and could not fine anything detailed and interesting (sorry if I missed something), I made for you a single frame comparison and uploaded it on my web site with the before/after view including the madVR settings data running on GTX 1070ti. Some frames have more obvious differences the others have less, yet as mentioned the UHD content compressed by the madVR has more clarity as a result with more details in near whites ( low highlight recovery is applied ), deeper and punchier colors with much more detailes and contrast darks that adds more depth to the picture. The textures are a bit sharper as well.

Enjoy and let me know what you think.

here

hover with the mouse over the screenshots

Have you compared the lut between colorimeter only and spectro+ colorimeter ?

Is it a huge difference ? I'm hunting for a spectro atm.
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Old 17th February 2019, 01:10   #54778  |  Link
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
Have you compared the lut between colorimeter only and spectro+ colorimeter ?

Is it a huge difference ? I'm hunting for a spectro atm.
Sure there is - different creature.
I got the spectro mostly for work. Will give the pj a go once I will get my hands on the new lamp. Profiling/calibration is time consuming.
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Old 17th February 2019, 01:12   #54779  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
I also prefer the HDR images. Even at 100 target nits, the improvement in contrast is noticeable. Maybe the only complaint I'd have is it looks like the gamma is ever so slightly raised in the HDR shots, which you can notice in some of the changes to some color tones. But none of the images look overbright.
I can definitely live with that. The benefits are obvious.
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Old 17th February 2019, 01:28   #54780  |  Link
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since then I am using the i1pro spectro but waiting till I order a new lamp to get it re calibrated.
Don't waste your money with an x-rite "recalibration" of your i1pro. It's not a re-calibration, it's a re-certification. They read it, and they certify it if it's still within specs (which it should be as they don't drift unlike filter based colorimeter). They don't correct or change anything. If it's out of specs, it's "defective" and they charge you more to correct it. But if it was defective, you would know it, no? so unless you suspect something to be wrong (and are ready to pay more than the initial recert), I'd just skip this.

I wasted the money once, and when I saw that the numbers on their new certificate were exactly the same as on my original certification (the one you get when you buy the thing), I asked them and that's how I found out. So personally I won't do it again.

I guess it's worth doing it if you do pro calibrations, but they people expect a better spectro than an i1pro in that case.

I've had my i1pro2 for years and I don't believe it has drifted one bit. My projectors, on the other hand, especially after a few thousand hours...

Just my .2 cents of course, it's your money
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