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Old 29th July 2019, 16:53   #1  |  Link
FranceBB
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Buying a new camera (Budget: 3000€)

Hi,
I wanted to buy a new mirrorless FF camera that is able to shoot both pictures and videos in closed environments with not so much light.
Ideally, I'd like it to have a decent amount of stops in order to record HDR videos with ideally 1000 nits.
The idea is to record videos in 4K 3840x2160 1.77 FF 16:9 (not cropped), 10bit in HEVC H.265 or Apple ProRes 4:4:4, but I would accept an H.264 as well.
As to the color curve, I'd like to shoot directly in either HLG or PQ, 'cause although I'm used to grade log footages and I made many matrices of linear transformation (FranceBB LUT Collection), I would rather not shoot my personal videos in log (unless I really have to).
What do you suggest?
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Old 29th July 2019, 18:47   #2  |  Link
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What you're describing by the video feature set isn't really a MILC, but some sort of Cinema camera. Most of them are Super-35 though, not Full Frame. Something like a Blackmagic Ursa Mini Pro 2. Maybe the yet to be announced Sony A7S Mk III will have the feature you're after.
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Old 12th August 2019, 21:59   #3  |  Link
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If you want autofocus then one of Sony or Panasonic GH5.
For nice filmic look one of BlackMagic, but this requires more planing (focusing) etc. as it's not run and gun camera.

From what you described it's rather probably Panasonic due to Sony's relatively poor internal recording and no 10bit over HDMI. It's such a waste of nice Sony overall video quality when everything is compressed with XAVC at 8bit.

Last edited by kolak; 12th August 2019 at 22:07.
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Old 13th August 2019, 18:11   #4  |  Link
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The new 'Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 6K' looks tasty (But still what kolak said).
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Old 13th August 2019, 20:49   #5  |  Link
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When I wrote my intro, I didn't actually mention the auto-focus, but I think that it's actually pretty handy whenever you have to shoot casual things.
Speaking of casual things, I'm gonna use it for myself as well, which basically means that I'm not always gonna be in a studio or outside within a sort of controlled environment, therefore I could be shooting with no control on the light whatsoever.
Taking those things into account, I would actually not buy a Blackmagic camera.
Don't get me wrong, they are actually pretty good cameras, however they're too manual which makes perfect sense whenever I gotta shoot something professional, but it makes much less sense whenever I gotta go... let's say... outside with my family... on... vacation? xD

Quote:
Originally Posted by kolak View Post
If you want autofocus then one of Sony or Panasonic GH5.
For nice filmic look one of BlackMagic, but this requires more planing (focusing) etc. as it's not run and gun camera.

From what you described it's rather probably Panasonic due to Sony's relatively poor internal recording and no 10bit over HDMI. It's such a waste of nice Sony overall video quality when everything is compressed with XAVC at 8bit.
I took a look at the Sony A7 III R but it only records in XAVC 8bit, which is a pity 'cause it has the capability to record in Slog3 and HLG, but with 8bit precision it won't be able to make use of 15 stops!
This is a shame, 'cause it has 15 stops, but with 8bit recording you'll be limited to about 11-12 stops maximum in real life usage and therefore way less nits, which makes Slog3 much less useful.
Besides, isn't HLG 8bit out of standard? I mean, there's nothing that's stopping you from applying Hybrid Log Gamma as curve to an 8bit footage of course, but isn't that supposed to be used with BT2020? And isn't BT2020 by standard made with 10bit in mind? What's the purpose of making such a camera with only 8bit?
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Old 13th August 2019, 21:36   #6  |  Link
kolak
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8bit and that's it. This is Sony main problem. There are issues wit LOG due to 8bit and HLG at 8bit is also a compromise for sure.
For you GH5 is probably the best choice (or GH5S for low light).
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Old 15th August 2019, 12:26   #7  |  Link
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I own a GH5 (beside a GH-4 and a GH-2) and use it almost daily for 90% documentation / 10% vacation
Back then I was happy with the encoding efforts made by panasonic developers since GH-4
and I am still impressed with the versatility of the 14-140 lens with a 3-set of macro rings.

Not wanting to dim kolak's suggestion, but for a new purchase:
I would rate the GH5 MicroFour-Third sensor only 4 stars of 5.

Low light: only maybe 3 stars of 5...(nah, 2 stars now) have seen better sensors since then.
At low light the GH5 sensor still isn' t worth the possible 10bit at all...

The GH5 high bitrates and 10 bit had been introduced only
after a remarkably loving and caring community pryed the GH4 firmware open
and unlocked the encoder settings in the hope for better GH4 picture quality.
I was betatesting back then, and after the encoder finally gave bits
the GH4 sensor stood out.. not like a sore thumb, but you'll know what that means. To me at least.
Still a big improvement after the GH-2 sensor, which delivered the panasonic-typical blue-orange noise starting from ISO800 on.

The GH5S for video I haven't seen though.
I guess for the GH5S 10MP video sensor the old formula
Less pixels -> Larger pixel area -> Less noise is maintained.
The 10MP sensor may have double pixel area, so 3dB SNR gain

Almost comparable results for the 20MP GH5 would have been achievable
via the GPU resizer/processing after the photo sensor as well.

So I guess the 10MP SNR advantage vs 20MP plus camera postprocessing in total should only be 1..2 dB.

One step ahead with a 35mm full format sensor and 10bit:
Panasonic DC-S1: 24MP ~2499.-€ (body only)
Panasonic DC-S1ME: 24MP ~3399.-€ (body + 24-105)
Panasonic DC-S1R: 47MP ~3699.-€ (body only)
Panasonic DC-S1RME: 47MP ~4299..4699.-€ (body + 24-105)
And 10 bit + Vlog cost extra (199.-€ firmware unlock key per camera body, tied to serial number)...

Hm, just for myself and out of curiosity I went through the S1 and S1R manuals (540 pages):
If you want to shoot in 10bit: no H.264 !
H.265 @72Mbit/s only, HLG ITU-R BT.2100.
Nice: 2x, 4x, 6x Slo-mo possible, so as FHD 20Mbps @ 179,82fps Rec rate / for a 29.97fps Playback rate
Ugly: 30min-1s Time limit for 4K (none for FHD) !!! I hope I misread that...

Haven't seen any S1 footage yet. And no, I am not affiliated with Panasonic.

One of my friends already went the >40MP route, Sony Alpha7RM2 in that case...
XAVC Well, 8bit, but that sensor fulfills usable 8 bit even at low light (night bar, offlight faces, food).
Looked impressive to me, just judging from his OLED camera monitor, no pixel peeping yet.


And here a readable S1 overview
https://thegadgetstream.com/2019/02/...r-review-news/

Just fired up my GH5, it has no recording limit and delivers 10 bit, although V-Log L would be a paid upgrade as well.
I shot myself in low light 4K @ 25fps AVC 4:2:2 10bit 150Mbps.
At ISO AUTO (and ISO 12800): Indiscutable poor noisy and stripey result.
At ISO 3200 already much too dark and still too noisy. Downgraded my rating to 2 stars, we have 2019.
I would not recommend buying a GH5 for low light anymore today.

Last weekend I was shot with a relative's iphone XR. AVC FHD 4:2:0 8bit 60.000 fps.
Evening birthday situation with few battery driven LED paper lamps hanging in the trees, and a small campfire.
Awesome movie quality, colors were real, even in surrounds of total darkness, so I kept my silence and left my GH5 in the bag.
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Last edited by Emulgator; 15th August 2019 at 18:01.
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Old 15th August 2019, 20:55   #8  |  Link
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Yes, G5 is not for low light. This is why GH5S exists.
Sony A7S is king of low light.
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