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Old 19th May 2009, 14:35   #1  |  Link
shmendrapolk
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Creating a standard DVD with both 4:3 and 16:9 film clips

I'm trying to create a DVD-Video of home movies using TMPGEnc, a program that has worked great in the past when I was just creating standard definition 4:3 videos.

My latest DVD contains some files that are 4:3 and some that are 16:9 aspect ratios. The files had been exported as mpeg-2 dvd format using Pinnacle 12. The software seems to recognize the difference between them (when I click on clip properties). However when I subsequently play the DVD on either my LCD widescreen TV or on my widescreen LCD computer monitor there are problems:
-the 4:3 film clips play as expected limiting the video to the center portion of the screen.
-The wide screen clips are are distorted - they take up the entire width of the screen, but not the entire height - i.e. they're vertically squished.
All the individual Mpeg files play as they should on the PC as video files, with the proper aspect ratio.

Does anybody know what the problem may be?
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Old 19th May 2009, 14:46   #2  |  Link
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Can you post a screenshot of it playing on your computer monitor?
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Old 19th May 2009, 14:46   #3  |  Link
smok3
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you are confusing 16:9LB and 16:9FHA ? (just guessing)
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Old 19th May 2009, 14:47   #4  |  Link
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I bet on setting in your player, if you're absolutely sure that the VOBs and their sources were correctly flagged (16:9 respectively 4:3). You can check this, at least I do, with DVD patcher.

These settings should match the type of TV you have. Check the manual how to do this.

However, if you mixed 16:9 with 4:3 within the same track (you can fool TMPGENC, because it checks only the first header not the actual content) now you have problems.
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Old 19th May 2009, 14:50   #5  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smok3 View Post
you are confusing 16:9LB and 16:9FHA ? (just guessing)
That was my first guess, but 16:9LB is 4:3 with black bars, Pinnacle cannot be so smart to see the difference (now I'm guessing too )
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Old 19th May 2009, 15:00   #6  |  Link
shmendrapolk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghitulescu View Post
I bet on setting in your player, if you're absolutely sure that the VOBs and their sources were correctly flagged (16:9 respectively 4:3). You can check this, at least I do, with DVD patcher.

These settings should match the type of TV you have. Check the manual how to do this.

However, if you mixed 16:9 with 4:3 within the same track (you can fool TMPGENC, because it checks only the first header not the actual content) now you have problems.
They are mixed as the same track (& I guess they are each separate chapters within the track?), so I guess that could be the problem, no?

The menu screen, however, is also in 16:9 & it suffers from the same issue.

using DVD media player: it seems to get the ratio right, but if I try to zoom to fit monitor, it will still only take up a portion of the screen in the center. Only if I select zoom to widescreen does it render properly, but then the 4:3 clips don't

Why would I have to flag it for a particular TV? Shouldn't a DVD be playable on multiple devices.

See screen shot
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Old 19th May 2009, 15:19   #7  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shmendrapolk View Post
They are mixed as the same track (& I guess they are each separate chapters within the track?), so I guess that could be the problem, no?

The menu screen, however, is also in 16:9 & it suffers from the same issue.

using DVD media player: it seems to get the ratio right, but if I try to zoom to fit monitor, it will still only take up a portion of the screen in the center. Only if I select zoom to widescreen does it render properly, but then the 4:3 clips don't

Why would I have to flag it for a particular TV? Shouldn't a DVD be playable on multiple devices.

See screen shot
Yes, you're not allowed by the DVD specs to mix 16:9 with 4:3 within the same track (VTS). So you tricked somehow TMPGENC to do this because it normally refuses with an error. Or you encoded the files from the beginning with the wrong parameters in Pinnacle thus TMPGENC didn't complain. Which made the DVD fully compliant but messed up the ARs.

If you really really really need to do this, then do the following:

1. import the first file normally. It will set the AR (16:9 or 4:3) for the whole track.
2. each subsequent file should be patched, if necessary, to this AR (only the first header suffices)
3. click Ok several times to reach the point where you can add more files to the same track
4. before adding the next one repatch the current file back to its original values.
5. now repeat 2-4 for each subsequent file.
6. do the rest of the authoring
7. burn the DVD (or DVDRW for testing).

Do not try to patch back the file when it is still opened by TMPGENC (that's step 3 for).


It depends however on the player if it would accept such a nonstandard disc or not. I think all DVD-recorders can accept such a mixed AR DVDs since they are forced to record programs with variable ARs: the most relevant case is of a real 16:9 movie having commercials (usually 4:3).

Last edited by Ghitulescu; 19th May 2009 at 15:31.
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Old 19th May 2009, 15:23   #8  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shmendrapolk View Post
Why would I have to flag it for a particular TV? Shouldn't a DVD be playable on multiple devices.
You do not flag the clip for a TV, you specifiy the type of the MPEG file (16:9, LB, crop etc.). You have however to specify the type of the TV (4:3 or 16:9) in the settings of your DVD player. This way the player reads both the VOB requirements and TV settings and outputs a video signal that accomodate both. Only this way
Quote:
Shouldn't a DVD be playable on multiple devices.
can be achieved.
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Old 19th May 2009, 15:39   #9  |  Link
shmendrapolk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghitulescu View Post
Yes, you're not allowed by the DVD specs to mix 16:9 with 4:3 within the same track (VTS). So you tricked somehow TMPGENC to do this because it normally refuses with an error. Or you encoded the files from the beginning with the wrong parameters in Pinnacle thus TMPGENC didn't complain. Which made the DVD fully compliant but messed up the ARs.

If you really really really need to do this, then do the following:

1. import the first file normally. It will set the AR (16:9 or 4:3) for the whole track.
2. each subsequent file should be patched, if necessary, to this AR (only the first header suffices)
3. click Ok several times to reach the point where you can add more files to the same track
4. before adding the next one repatch the current file back to its original values.
5. now repeat 2-4 for each subsequent file.
6. do the rest of the authoring
7. burn the DVD (or DVDRW for testing).

Do not try to patch back the file when it is still opened by TMPGENC (that's step 3 for).


It depends however on the player if it would accept such a nonstandard disc or not. I think all DVD-recorders can accept such a mixed AR DVDs since they are forced to record programs with variable ARs: the most relevant case is of a real 16:9 movie having commercials (usually 4:3).
OK, would it be simpler to have each video file as a separate track? Would that make it fully compatible & compliant? I assume its feasible, since I've watched movies on DVD that give you the option of widescreen vs letterbox.

The jpeg I posted is a menu screen. I made the meny screen vid files in widescreen, so I hope that I can have:
1) widescreen menus
2) a bunch of 4:3 film clips
3) a bunch of 16:9 clips

I set set no parameters when exporting from pinnacle except "mpeg-2" dvd-compatible. The widescreen clips were originally made in high definition, but exported as DVD-compliant mpeg-2 files.
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Old 19th May 2009, 16:09   #10  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shmendrapolk View Post
OK, would it be simpler to have each video file as a separate track? Would that make it fully compatible & compliant? I assume its feasible, since I've watched movies on DVD that give you the option of widescreen vs letterbox.

The jpeg I posted is a menu screen. I made the meny screen vid files in widescreen, so I hope that I can have:
1) widescreen menus
2) a bunch of 4:3 film clips
3) a bunch of 16:9 clips

I set set no parameters when exporting from pinnacle except "mpeg-2" dvd-compatible. The widescreen clips were originally made in high definition, but exported as DVD-compliant mpeg-2 files.
Ok, that explains everthing.
HD clips are always 16:9, IMHO. It might be very possible that Pinnacle (I never used this software) took the file and converted into 720x576i and making it by default 4:3.
And yes, separating 4:3 clips from those in 16:9 was the best idea - so I assumed you had a reason to go against this rule. My fault.
Again, by default, all consumer grade authoring softwares create a 4:3 menu. To make it 16:9 simply place the buttons within the imaginary 16:9 rectangle.
The image you posted is not available yet.
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Old 19th May 2009, 17:22   #11  |  Link
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Pinnacle definitely exported it as 16:9, when I play the mpegs on my PC they render with the correct aspect ratio.

The only reason I have the files as one track is that I dragged and dropped them in all at once into TMPGENC and it put them as one track. My only criteria was that they are separate files that (1) can be accessed individually from a sub-menu (2) would automatically play continuously from one to the next. Whether its one track with separate chapters or multiple tracks is all the same to me. (And I'm not certain I fully understand the distinction between tracks and chapters).

As for the menus - I thought I had changed its properties to treat the video clips I used as 16:9. Can it be done (a motion mpeg 16:9 menu screen with buttons on top of it)?
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Old 19th May 2009, 19:09   #12  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shmendrapolk View Post
(And I'm not certain I fully understand the distinction between tracks and chapters).
Think of a CD-changer. A CD is a track and each song is a chapter.
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Old 19th May 2009, 20:16   #13  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghitulescu View Post
Think of a CD-changer. A CD is a track and each song is a chapter.
So is it possible to burn a multi-track DVD so that the next track automatically begins when one track ends?

I remember burning a DVD with VSO convertXtoDVD and the disc would always go back to the menu when one track ended.
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Old 20th May 2009, 08:51   #14  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shmendrapolk View Post
So is it possible to burn a multi-track DVD so that the next track automatically begins when one track ends?

I remember burning a DVD with VSO convertXtoDVD and the disc would always go back to the menu when one track ended.
I remember you said you use TMPGenc. This software places by default a button on the menu that says "Play all". Select this button in your DVD player and it will play all tracks in a row. If you click however on a track you'll end either in chapter menu or, if none present, it will start the movie.
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Old 20th May 2009, 08:57   #15  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shmendrapolk View Post
Pinnacle definitely exported it as 16:9, when I play the mpegs on my PC they render with the correct aspect ratio.
The theory is a little more complicated as there is more than one variable that indicates how a particular MPEG file should be played (display size, frame size, PAR and DAR are the most important ones). I never trust a computer for previewing, I rather burn a test DVDRW and see it on a real DVD player connected to a real TV.
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Old 20th May 2009, 15:08   #16  |  Link
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I tested a multi-track DVD with 4:3 and 16:9 clips. It seemed to work ok, except that the 16:9 menu didn't render properly. So menus do have to be 4:3 then?

Also pushing the forward button on a multi-track DVD seems to do nothing, even though the next track plays automatically when one track ends. Is there a way to fix this?
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Old 20th May 2009, 15:13   #17  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shmendrapolk View Post
I tested a multi-track DVD with 4:3 and 16:9 clips. It seemed to work ok, except that the 16:9 menu didn't render properly. So menus do have to be 4:3 then?

Also pushing the forward button on a multi-track DVD seems to do nothing, even though the next track plays automatically when one track ends. Is there a way to fix this?
You REALLY have now to read the manual of your authoring software. Because now everthing depends on its settings. For instance, the inability to skip a chapter may be due to PUO, or cell-commands, or bad linking.
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Old 20th May 2009, 19:46   #18  |  Link
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@shmendrapolk

Hi!
Quote:
Also pushing the forward button on a multi-track DVD seems to do nothing, even though the next track plays automatically when one track ends.
The "Forward"/"Next" button is used for advancing to the next CHAPTER of a Track/Title, and cannot be used for advancing to the next Track/Title...
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Old 20th May 2009, 20:28   #19  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by setarip_old View Post
@shmendrapolk

Hi!The "Forward"/"Next" button is used for advancing to the next CHAPTER of a Track/Title, and cannot be used for advancing to the next Track/Title...
Oh so there's no way around that?
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Old 20th May 2009, 22:14   #20  |  Link
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you could make a chapter at the last frame of the track, so next button should work as expected (if end action is specified as jump to next track).

p.s. but not sure how ugly such hacks are.

so its like:

4:3 track I-----------------------I to 16:9 track I------------------I

I stands for chapters.
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Last edited by smok3; 20th May 2009 at 22:17.
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