"Cinavia"/Verance BluRay audio watermark protection

[rotty]

Originally Posted by SamuriHL

It could be ALL of them and it'd still not get my attention. However, if tomorrow I woke up and EVERY SINGLE BD player in the world was suddenly Cinavia enabled, then I'd be concerned.

Now I know you dont like to look into the future but,
just out of interest, what do you think is most likley:

a) An insignificant number of players will be enabled this Year.

b) A significant number of players will be enabled this Year.

[rotty]

Originally Posted by SamuriHL

Let me ask you this....my PC can play ANY BD I want right now either with or without a licensed software player. And it doesn't matter at all if that BD contains Cinavia. So what, in the next year, is going to change that? Anything? Even if the commercial players get updated to support Cinavia, I am smart enough to back up the very latest version that doesn't. And if they decide to revoke the player keys of the commercial players to force you to update, I still don't care because I use AnyDVD to remove all protections anyway. And since I use AnyDVD to remove protections, that opens me up to non-commercial players that don't give a care in the world that Cinavia is in the audio stream. So, tell me, how am I going to be affected any time soon? What is the big FEAR I have to be concerned with? Anything?

I dont think you have anything to fear.

I have never even thought about it in that way.

I was just making a point as to how I see industries reacting.

I think that if you have enough PC's to last your lifetime then your more than safe (I think ???)

[SamuriHL]

Originally Posted by rotty

Now I know you dont like to look into the future but,
just out of interest, what do you think is most likley:

a) An insignificant number of players will be enabled this Year.

b) A significant number of players will be enabled this Year.

I honestly have no idea. In 2010 I would have answered with a majority of players. Today, I'm literally saying I don't know. The reason? History has taught us well that we really don't have a clue. What is most likely and logical in every sense isn't necessarily what's going to happen. As we have seen. Since Cinavia works, shouldn't every disc have it and every player support it by now? But that's not the case. So....you tell me.

[SamuriHL]

Originally Posted by rotty

I dont think you have anything to fear.

I have never even thought about it in that way.

I was just making a point as to how I see industries reacting.

I think that if you have enough PC's to last your lifetime then your more than safe (I think ???)

Right, that's been the point I was trying to make. To look at things from the viewpoint of an end user who just wants to play their backups. Myself, I make MKV's of all my discs and play them using J River's MC17. It doesn't know a darn thing about Cinavia and it couldn't care less. I could just as easily make the MKV's and play them on a WD Live TV media streaming device as my dad does. Also not affected by Cinavia. For rented discs I use TMT5 and PDVD12 with AnyDVD running. Once those get Cinavia, then I will switch to just using J River MC17 on the disc itself, or I will just simply not upgrade TMT and/or PDVD. Done. Cinavia can fade away into oblivion at that point.

I couldn't care less about how the industry reacts. What I care about is the simple down to earth question...."Is this going to affect my ability to play my backups...or not?" And so far, even in the foreseeable future, the answer is NOT. This right here is why I have the attitude I do towards Cinavia. Until I am, or am likely to be, affected by it, I simply find it a fascinating topic, but, really nothing more than that.

[rotty]

Originally Posted by SamuriHL

I honestly have no idea. In 2010 I would have answered with a majority of players. Today, I'm literally saying I don't know. The reason? History has taught us well that we really don't have a clue. What is most likely and logical in every sense isn't necessarily what's going to happen. As we have seen. Since Cinavia works, shouldn't every disc have it and every player support it by now? But that's not the case. So....you tell me.

Im with you on this but if I was really pushed and HAD to pick I would go for b).

I dont think we will see a removal program, so we have 2 options:

1.. The PC
2.. Dont buy

And you know which one I think has the last say.

[SamuriHL]

Originally Posted by rotty

Im with you on this but if I was really pushed and HAD to pick I would go for b).

I dont think we will see a removal program, so we have 2 options:

1.. The PC
2.. Dont buy

And you know which one I think has the last say.

No argument there. I would love to say I'm not going to buy it. To support the cause. But, for me I have a policy that if I take the time to go see it in the theater, I generally buy it just on principle. Because I've already forked over 30 or more bucks to see it anyway. If it's a movie I haven't seen and am not sure about, I'll rent it. But if it's something I haven't seen but know I'm going to want to watch it more than once, I buy it. Yes, not buying is the best answer. But what happens if more studios adopt it? Are you going to have the willpower to avoid them all? I know I won't. I'm just being honest here.

[rotty]

Originally Posted by SamuriHL

No argument there. I would love to say I'm not going to buy it. To support the cause. But, for me I have a policy that if I take the time to go see it in the theater, I generally buy it just on principle. Because I've already forked over 30 or more bucks to see it anyway. If it's a movie I haven't seen and am not sure about, I'll rent it. But if it's something I haven't seen but know I'm going to want to watch it more than once, I buy it. Yes, not buying is the best answer. But what happens if more studios adopt it? Are you going to have the willpower to avoid them all? I know I won't. I'm just being honest here.

LOL, you do what I do. If have gone to see it at the Cinema, then its probably a film I want on BD. Some films ive been to see dont fall into that catagory lol.

Ive been lucky so far because I think most if not all in the Cinavia list I dont really want to see let alone own.

I will though NOT buy even if I want it if it has Cinavia.

I really think that at this early stage in both Cinavia and in fact BD uptake, we can make a great big difference if we do this.

[rotty]

It wouldnt last long, word would get about re sales figures, that would fuel it more.

You wouldnt have to hold out too long.

they would cave in.

[SamuriHL]

You have more willpower than I do for sure on that one. Plus I have kids and my wife to think about. I completely and totally understand the boycott idea and even support it in theory. I just know that I wouldn't be able to hold out.

[rotty]

Originally Posted by SamuriHL

You have more willpower than I do for sure on that one. Plus I have kids and my wife to think about. I completely and totally understand the boycott idea and even support it in theory. I just know that I wouldn't be able to hold out.

yeh I know, havnt had the problem yet as no movie in that list wanted. will possibly rent if need to keep the peace.
NOT BUY.

[SamuriHL]

Originally Posted by rotty

yeh I know, havnt had the problem yet as no movie in that list wanted. will possibly rent if need to keep the peace.
NOT BUY.

What's funny, though, is that because of the playback methods I use, I literally have to look on the cover or at a list to know which of mine contain Cinavia and which ones don't. LOL! When I say I'm not affected, I mean not even the littlest bit. At this point I figure if it's a Sony release, it likely has Cinavia. If it's a Warner Bros release, it's at least possible. And if it's anyone else, it's possible but not probable. But other than looking on the cover or seeing online that it has Cinavia, I genuinely wouldn't even know unless I tried to stream it to my PS3. I stopped using that for media playback LONG before Cinavia came around.

[setarip_old]

(See "Lord Mulder's" post in the "News sub-forum here)

Experimental support for BluRay discs:
- Menus are deactivated in this release (will come soon).
- AACS and BD+ DRM libraries and keys are not shipped, for legal reasons.

Sounds like we may soon have another reason not to be too concerned about Verance/"Cinavia" protection (When used in conjunction with DVDFab Passkey, AnyDVD, or possibly MakeMKV) ;>}

[SamuriHL]

Yea, the new VLC is pretty sweet. I hadn't seen those two entries, though. VERY NICE!

[Ghitulescu]

Again wishful thinking.

Microsoft licensed cinavia. Why? To put it on Xbox? No, probably because MS wants its in-house player to be able to play BDs on a PC, thus transforming the PC into a player and thus needing an AACS licence, too, which comes in turn with cinavia as well.

Intel will burrow DRM algorithms deep down into the CPU, so any software is useless, unless this SW patches that, before CPU (impossible, unless Intel itself provided a hook point).

Therefore the originals will play (following a sort of PAP method) while the copies will be blocked.

The standalones are cinavied, the PCs will be soon, the game consoles are cinavied, too. Where will one be play the copies? On his cellphone?

What I've seen here was only a wish, based that someone, somewhere, and somehow will find a solution to remove cinavia, technically I mean. Hopes go to DVDfab and AnyDVD. That is a nice delegation of tasks. But supposing they'll manage to "decinaviy" the audio, how can one get into the possession of this software? Probably booking a trip to Antigua, because the internet will be blocked as well, at least for "dangerous" sites. And hoping that the Customs won't notice the memory-stick, nor the bank transfer.

The only solution to cinavia you can do without delegating is to instruct your senator/representative to issue laws ruling out some intrusive aspects of AACS and cinavia. They could rule as illegal, for instance, the leverage of "copy tax" on media and recorders, since no copy can be made. Because cinavia cannot be legally outlawed.

[Andy o]

What's the timeframe do you think, until that happens?

[rotty]

If you knowingly buy a disk with the Cinavia watermark, then you cannot complain about Cinavia.

Not a moan, not a bad word.

It’s like slagging off a politician, saying that they are bad/useless/corrupt, and then voting for them to put them in power.

[Ghitulescu]

They start envisaging the complete digital lockdown somewhere around 1989-1990, the first results can be seen today, after some 20 years*. I think in 5-10 years (as they have less work to do now) everything that has to do with multimedia content will be definitively locked, one way or the other.

In 1920, if one destroyed his record (classical things like, the kids, the dog, the cat) that one had to buy a second original. One wanted to see twice a particular movie? No problem, s/he must buy a second ticket. We'll come back to that situation, except that tomorrow one cannot skip the trailers and commercials . The first item is renamed today as No right to private copy (only the original is legal), the second one is renamed Video-on-demand. Old news .

The magnetophone (R2R) and the VCR changed this order. The studios lost both trials (in analogue) but the won the digital ones (CDR, DAT, SCMS). They lost the Rio one, but now they found the solution to this "hole", too. Simply, drop the analogue. One cannot protect the analogue that good as the digital. It was not a favour (digital quality ), it was a theft.

The history repeats itself. Those willing to copy macrovisioned-tapes (or DVDs the analogue way) had to rely either on a MV-remover or to hunt an older-than-1985 VCR. When MV outlawed the first, people were left only with the second solution.


* I mean everything is copy-protected, unless the law forbids it and even then, they could enforce it (that's the power of a monopole). All private SAT and Cable broadcasters use now various flags to prevent copying, time-shifting, archiving, analogue output etc. In some instances they can even prohibit the FWD (commercial skip). The DVD was a closed system (digital and analog) until someone broke the CSS. The BD learned from this early mistake and designed the system to be upgradable. The specs are also upgradable, so that they could force the users to change their players much easily (the most part of non-cinavia players has been made obsolete eg by 3D). The players will also be made as cheap as possible, so they can break around the time when a new "technology advance" rise. I read in various fora that the early models already developed laser rot symptoms, after some 4-5 years. Just in time to buy the new 3D cinavied player.

PS: the future in communications will foresee only cables (copper or optical or whatever new technology). Because only the cable can guarantee a targeted distribution of the information (for instance you see your own customised "version" of CNN news, while your neighbour might see the same CNN news but with a different content) and of course its full control (like selective filtering of internet - google does it for years).

[ro-ee]

Originally Posted by Ghitulescu

Intel will burrow DRM algorithms deep down into the CPU, so any software is useless, unless this SW patches that, before CPU (impossible, unless Intel itself provided a hook point).

Therefore the originals will play (following a sort of PAP method) while the copies will be blocked.

As long as no cpu-accelerated methods are used, DRM algorithms have no say in this. Think of it that way: just as currently you can let the graphics card decode the video (and where DRM algorithms could detect and block it), you can still have it all done in cpu (though this may have a speed impact). And in cpu it's pure software (think of ffmpeg).

One problem could be the output of audio through a on-chipset sound chip. If the chipset maker decides it doesn't allow watermarked (i.e. cinavia'd) audio to be played if no prior authentication has been done with a certain software, then we're again screwed. To mitigate this either one has to use extra hardware (a spare sound card) or find a way to authenticate itself so even the sound chip detects cinavia, it lets it pass because it thinks it comes from a trusted source.

As a rule of thumb I would say: if it can be done completely in software, you're still safe. Once you rely on hardware acceleration (and the hw has detection algorithms), you need to fool the hw into thinking it comes from a trusted source or use HW w/o the detection.

[rotty]

Originally Posted by ro-ee

As long as no cpu-accelerated methods are used, DRM algorithms have no say in this. Think of it that way: just as currently you can let the graphics card decode the video (and where DRM algorithms could detect and block it), you can still have it all done in cpu (though this may have a speed impact). And in cpu it's pure software (think of ffmpeg).

One problem could be the output of audio through a on-chipset sound chip. If the chipset maker decides it doesn't allow watermarked (i.e. cinavia'd) audio to be played if no prior authentication has been done with a certain software, then we're again screwed. To mitigate this either one has to use extra hardware (a spare sound card) or find a way to authenticate itself so even the sound chip detects cinavia, it lets it pass because it thinks it comes from a trusted source.

As a rule of thumb I would say: if it can be done completely in software, you're still safe. Once you rely on hardware acceleration (and the hw has detection algorithms), you need to fool the hw into thinking it comes from a trusted source or use HW w/o the detection.

The CPU will become a single chip.
This Chip will have:
1..The main CPU
2..A small 8/16 bit CPU for DRM running on board s/w
3..All I/O

Where would your external soundcard get its input signal.

From the single chip CPU. The stream from the I/O would be blocked.

[ro-ee]

Originally Posted by rotty

The CPU will become a single chip.
This Chip will have:
1..The main CPU
2..A small 8/16 bit CPU for DRM running on board s/w
3..All I/O

Where would your external soundcard get its input signal.

From the single chip CPU. The stream from the I/O would be blocked.

As long as there are buses connecting the hardware, there's still a chance. Normal or external PCI (Thunderbolt), or even USB audio adapters can receive data from the CPU, and unless the CPU (or at least the DRM part of it) scans ALL I/O for unwanted content, this is still a possibility.