madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[JohnLai]

Few days ago, I bought Spyder4 Elite and calibrated my desktop's display accordingly.
80 cd/m2, gamma 2.2. The software showed a graph that my display is 84% of sRGB which is okay by me.
SpyderUtility.exe automatically applies the generated ICC profile on startup.

Now, the question on madvr configuration.

What setting do I need to select at 'devices'-->'Dell XXXXX something'-->'Calibration'?
Should I select 'disable calibration control for this device' or 'this display already calibrated'?
Next, how about the checkbox 'disable GPU gamma ramps'?

[Ver Greeneyes]

Originally Posted by JohnLai

SpyderUtility.exe automatically applies the generated ICC profile on startup.

Now, the question on madvr configuration.

What setting do I need to select at 'devices'-->'Dell XXXXX something'-->'Calibration'?

madVR does not support ICC profiles, though it will be affected by any gamma ramps that the ICC profile loads into your GPU. To get the most out of your profile, you should make a Rec.709 3DLUT out of it using ArgyllCMS (coupled with dispcalGUI if you don't like console commands). For more instructions see this thread (though the first post is a bit out of date). You can use ArgyllCMS for calibration and profiling as well, but your existing profile should work fine for making a 3DLUT.

The 'disable GPU gamma ramps' option is for when your 3DLUT already includes the calibration, either integrated into the values or appended. This will disable the calibration loaded into your GPU, so other programs will look different while madVR is active. The exception to this is when you use the windowed overlay mode, but I forget what the right settings are for that

[wOxxOm]

Is it possible to make madVR read matroska tags in addition to "tags" with madVR settings in the file name?

[James Freeman]

madshi,

Can you please explain how Source Levels work?
For example; when I cut the Black Source Level to -5, does madVR actually clip the blacks or rolls off gradually (in 16-bit) like the brightness slider?

I use Black Source Level to emulate BT.1886 curve to my taste, instead of using the Brightness control.
Brightness control effects too much of the middle shades, while Black Source Level only the few critical shades where it matters the most for Great vs Not so great movie experience.
These first few shades of black are where the difference between BT.1886, sRGB or Power 2.2 lies, it also where a good vs poor apparent contrast lies.

In other words it'd be nice to have better control over the dark shades like a Black Offset Control on a high quality TV without the need of work around tricks.

[bozokaydin]

Originally Posted by Anime Viewer

What do you have set for your dithering method? I found that when I tried any type of Error Diffusion my GPU couldn't handle it, but if I set it to Ordered dithering (random should work too) I was then able to get NNEDI3 to run without dropping frames.

Yes i am using error diffusion type 2. now as you say i am gonna try ordered dithering. thanks!

[Audionut]

I don't understand why the image upscaling has any effect, when using nnedi3. If I'm using nnedi3 to upscale 720p with a display resolution of 1080p, why is the image upscaling effecting performance?

Originally Posted by James Freeman

I use Black Source Level to emulate BT.1886 curve to my taste, instead of using the Brightness control.

You probably shouldn't be using the brightness control to emulate anything. Use it to set your (display) black level.

[renethx]

4:2:0 in 720p -> 4:4:4 in 720p by chroma upscaling algorithm, then 4:4:4 in 720p -> 4:4:4 in 1080p by image upscaling algorithm.

[Audionut]

Of course, thankyou.

[ryrynz]

I've used the madVR levels tweaker for my HD4000 and am unsure if I need to set PC levels on input or not.

If I set madVR to TV levels for output which is what's recommended, I have to set TV levels for input to have black >16 to flash with a test pattern.
Alternatively if I have it set to PC levels for input which is what I would expect given I've forced 0-255 output I require PC levels set for output to see black >16 flash with a test pattern.
If I set PC levels as input and TV as output (what I would expect the correct settings to be) I have black >2 flash, which isn't what I would expect given output is supposed to be 16-235.

What is the correct setting here? Thanks.

[James Freeman]

Originally Posted by Audionut

You probably shouldn't be using the brightness control to emulate anything. Use it to set your (display) black level.

Its not what I've meant.

I want to elevate or lower only the first 3-10 black steps without effecting the other steps, its called Black Offset control on some TV's.
I intentionally crush the blacks (but not clip them) to make the image look more contrasty.
Custom Range Gamma/Brightness Control (in 16-bit) is what I'm striving for.

JanWillem32 has written a shader for this once, but the shader is 8-bit thus creating a lot of banding, ffdshow is also 8-bit.

[James Freeman]

Originally Posted by ryrynz

If I set madVR to TV levels for output which is what's recommended, I have to set TV levels for input to have black >16 to flash with a test pattern.
Alternatively if I have it set to PC levels for input which is what I would expect given I've forced 0-255 output I require PC levels set for output to see black >16 flash with a test pattern.

Both Correct.

Originally Posted by ryrynz

If I set PC levels as input and TV as output (what I would expect the correct settings to be) I have black >2 flash, which isn't what I would expect given output is supposed to be 16-235.

This is also normal behavior.
You are sending (output) limited range signal, but the TV expects full range signal thus showing all the shades.

Originally Posted by ryrynz

I've used the madVR levels tweaker for my HD4000 and am unsure if I need to set PC levels on input or not.

It depends if your TV has this range setting effect all the inputs.
If the TV input range setting effects all the inputs of your TV, set the Input and the tweaker to 16-235 because most probably than not your satellite box is 16-235 too.
If it effects only this single input and you use your HTPC/PC not only for movies but also for internet and games, you should set 0-255 for this input and at the tweaker output.
In both cases madVR range setting in its control panel should be set to full range 0-255.

Remember that there is also a range setting in madVR control panel, and that the Range Tweaker software is only for HDMI.
In any case, your TV Input, Tweaker (HDMI) Output should always match, unless... purpose.

[ryrynz]

Originally Posted by James Freeman

In both cases madVR range setting in its control panel should be set to full range 0-255.

So in this case with my HTPC being the only device connected, I should set the tweaker to 0-255 input to PC and output in madVR to TV, having blacks >2 flash. Correct?

The levels changed in the madVR control panel "devices-> TV-> this display expects following RGB levels" affect output levels but there's nothing for input levels.

If this is the case, shouldn't madVR ideally set the source levels to PC automatically after using the tweaker? I don't want to have to use the keyboard shortcut to change this each time.

[nevcairiel]

madVR handles the input levels automatically, you don't need options or anything for them. You can override it on a per-file basis, but its only useful if madVR detects the wrong input level. The input level is defined by the file, not any setup in your display chain.

For the level settings, there is basically 3 combinations of settings:

(1) TV accepts PC/Full levels: Set madVR to PC/Full, set GPU to PC/Full - This is usually considered the better option, if your TV can do it.

(2) TV accepts only TV/Limited levels:

(a) Set GPU to PC/Full and set madVR to TV/Limited
(b) Set GPU to TV/Limited and set madVR to PC/Full

In the second case, both a and b have small drawbacks.
With (a), you get crushed black/white on the desktop, but everything is perfect in madVR.
With (b), you get proper colors everywhere, except that the GPU is doing the PC range -> TV range conversion, which may not be the highest quality and end up in banding.

NEVER set both madVR to TV/Limited AND GPU to TV/Limited, you get double range compression.

Because of these drawbacks with either a or b, its usually recommended to use (1) if your TV accepts it. Its only "downside" is that BTB/WTW are lost, but its arguable if those are even worth keeping. If you insist on WTW/BTB, the 2a setting is probably the next best for video quality, if you can live with crushed black/white on the Desktop.

However you set it up, the test patterns should only show 16-235 after calibration.

[James Freeman]

Originally Posted by ryrynz

So in this case with my HTPC being the only device connected, I should set the tweaker to 0-255 input to PC and output in madVR to TV, having blacks >2 flash. Correct?

Not correct.
You should NOT see below 16 and above 235.

Remember this:
In Video 16 is absolute black & 235 is absolute white.
In PC 0 is black & 255 is white.
If you want the video to show correctly, 16 needs to be absolute black anywhere.
madVR needs to be aware of these settings to display the correct image.

1. madVR setting -> Devices - (Your Display) -> Properties -> PC levels (0-255).
2. madLevelsTweaker.exe -> Force PC Levels (0-255).
3. Set you TV to PC Levels 0-255.

What the "this display expects following RGB levels" does is:
When set to PC range it stretches the video content range (16-235) to PC range (0-255).
While in TV range it does nothing and leaves the video content range untouched.

[ryrynz]

Originally Posted by nevcairiel

With (b), you get proper colors everywhere, except that the GPU is doing the PC range -> TV range conversion, which may not be the highest quality and end up in banding.

Cheers Nev, James, I got it now.

It would be cool if someone could check if the current cards do introduce any banding with 16-235 output.

[hozes]

Originally Posted by nevcairiel

madVR handles the input levels automatically, you don't need options or anything for them. You can override it on a per-file basis, but its only useful if madVR detects the wrong input level. The input level is defined by the file, not any setup in your display chain.

For the level settings, there is basically 3 combinations of settings:

(1) TV accepts PC/Full levels: Set madVR to PC/Full, set GPU to PC/Full - This is usually considered the better option, if your TV can do it.

(2) TV accepts only TV/Limited levels:

(a) Set GPU to PC/Full and set madVR to TV/Limited
(b) Set GPU to TV/Limited and set madVR to PC/Full

In the second case, both a and b have small drawbacks.
With (a), you get crushed black/white on the desktop, but everything is perfect in madVR.
With (b), you get proper colors everywhere, except that the GPU is doing the PC range -> TV range conversion, which may not be the highest quality and end up in banding.

NEVER set both madVR to TV/Limited AND GPU to TV/Limited, you get double range compression.

Because of these drawbacks with either a or b, its usually recommended to use (1) if your TV accepts it. Its only "downside" is that BTB/WTW are lost, but its arguable if those are even worth keeping. If you insist on WTW/BTB, the 2a setting is probably the next best for video quality, if you can live with crushed black/white on the Desktop.

However you set it up, the test patterns should only show 16-235 after calibration.

for watching movies, which option is best, not for descopt or etc, just for watching movies for true color level..
i think option 2(a) is best, cause ovies handed at 16-235, right..

[QBhd]

I am sure the consensus is that (1) is always best if your TV is able to do it. nev clearly lists the drawbacks of (2).

QB

[James Freeman]

If one uses his HTPC strictly for movie watching, Nev's option (2a) is best, just because it eliminates the need of Dithering and range conversion in madVR (or any other video software, or GPU driver/settings), and retains BTB & WTW.
The output would be like what you expect to see in a top-notch Blu-Ray Player, no range conversion or dithering anywhere (not that I can see any of them with my naked eye with madVR).
Then use your TV's Brightness & Contrast like you normally would for calibration (this will crush/clip the blacks and whites outside the video range).
This option is best if you want the absolutely most pristine video signal out of your HTPC, and don't care about how Desktop software will look like.

If the HTPC and your display are not only for movie watching, option (1) is best.
Make sure you always use Dithering with this option.

I myself am on option (1), I use a PC monitor.

P.S
I'm back with my trusty old Dell U2410 IPS monitor, gave the AMVA away.

[seiyafan]

Happy Easter every one!

What does fullscreen exclusive mode do? I found that if I check enable automatic fullscreen exclusive mode, rendering queue struggles to go past 0, however with it unchecked the queue fills to full in one second and there is no frame drop.

[nevcairiel]

Originally Posted by James Freeman

If one uses his HTPC strictly for movie watching, Nev's option (2a) is best, just because it eliminates the need of Dithering

That's not true. The chroma scaling and the rgb conversion already make dithering mandatory. Range conversion just slightly changes the coefficients used for the rgb conversion, it doesn't add a new step in the process.