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13th December 2011, 18:53 | #11441 | Link | ||||
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As for Catmull-Rom which I use 90% of the time, the difference between it and Spline36 chroma are basically unnoticeable on real footage. That fact that Catmull-Rom is the sharpest resizer which doesn't produce halos/rings is a bigger benefit since otherwise the halos produced by Spline36 for Luma would increase. Use of Spline36 Luma also slightly restores saturation and reduces the chroma aliasing of Catmull-Rom. The two complement each other well, if aiming for the sharpest result with least ringing as I am. Quote:
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No offense was intended, but I feel it made it made my personal option on use of SoftCubic for luma very clear. If I use SoftCubic luma on a high quality source material it becomes subjectively unwatchable to my eyes. Yet if I have a horrible low quality source which is near unwatchable, SoftCubic can actually help by hiding some of the issue and make the video somewhat watchable. Last edited by cyberbeing; 13th December 2011 at 20:14. |
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13th December 2011, 18:56 | #11442 | Link | |
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What I mean, x64 madVR is really not a priority right now (from what Madshi said), and it's not your mysterious message which will change its priority. |
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13th December 2011, 18:59 | #11443 | Link | |
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Bicubic75 easily wins all of the tests I did, be it chroma or luma. Hopefully madshi adds Bicubic100, I would really like to do some tests on that. Since madshi also seems to like SoftCubic on chroma (like I do) an algorithm that would do SoftCubic(70-100) and also color-correct (counter the desaturation) would improve SoftCubic even more. Not sure of that is easily doable, though. Last edited by iSunrise; 13th December 2011 at 19:05. |
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13th December 2011, 19:52 | #11444 | Link | |
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I have information (of the other forums), that madshi is will not make x64-version, until not improve x86-version. That is why I asked a question. If the question had been raised a couple of days/hours ago - sorry, that I do not know about it. |
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13th December 2011, 21:04 | #11445 | Link | ||
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13th December 2011, 23:03 | #11447 | Link | ||||||||
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I've gone back and forth on this, testing different luma algorithms with different material, and unless someone can find a material where chroma aliasing is a problem, I'd say that you could get away with Bicubic 60 as the "softest" chroma algorithm (for reference, it seems like Catmull-Rom and Bicubic 50 are the same) While it seemed like Spline 3 was a possibility (lower aliasing and higher sharpness than Bicubic) I did find some material where there was a noticeable decrease in quality caused by ringing. As always, I would have to spend more time testing (ultimately, it takes a while of also just watching content and noticing problems) but Bicubic 60 may be the best compromise for chroma—either that or Bicubic 75 which I had settled on previously. Any softer than that and you run into desaturation problems, and any sharper than Bicubic 75, you run into ringing problems. Quote:
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Ringing absolutely has an effect on chroma, regardless of the luma algorithm used, but it does not show up in the same way that it does with luma. The easiest way I can describe it is that it makes the edges of things look "bevelled" and you start seeing "hotspots" on finer details. It's difficult to show, especially as a .gif, but hopefully this will illustrate it somewhat. SoftCubic was used for luma scaling to show that your choice of chroma scaling is still important. Quote:
I'm curious to see what content you are using that has a lot of high frequency detail that is lost when using SoftCubic. Most high frequency detail in DVD-quality video is ringing/mosquito noise which are compression artefacts/mastering problems. As I've said before though, you have to pick your poison. You either use an algorithm that is bad for aliasing (Mitchell-Netravali, Catmull-Rom) ringing (Bicubic, Lanczos, Spline) or sharpness. (SoftCubic) For me, the priority of things I want to avoid are aliasing, then ringing and, I can tolerate a reduction in high frequency contrast as it's largely irrelevant to DVD-quality film content. Luma scaling is up to the viewer, I still strongly believe that there are some algorithms (like all of SoftCubic, Mitchell-Netravali and Lanczos) that simply produce incorrect results when used for chroma scaling, regardless of the source. Quote:
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As I've said before though, my personal choice is somewhere between SoftCubic 50–70 for luma scaling, as most video I watch that needs upscaled is of DVD or lower resolution where the sharper algorithms just show too much ringing/aliasing. Perhaps they become more acceptable with 720p sources. I don't think it would be an easy fix. The desaturation/dimming of colour seems to simply be because it's being softened too much. I haven't tested it, but I am confident in saying that large areas of the same colour will not be desaturated in the same way that finer details are. (basically the smaller the detail, the more it seems to desaturate) |
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14th December 2011, 03:33 | #11448 | Link | |||||||
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The 'best compromise' is entirely subjective. Everything sharper than Catmull-rom will produce noticeable ringing in the chroma. You may need to zoom way in to see it, but it's there, even with Bicubic -0.60. Everything softer than Catmull-rom has noticeable desaturation. Catmull-rom offers the most mathematically accurate 2x chroma Bicubic scaling. Minor residual aliasing from the sub-sampled chroma is a non-issue, especially on higher resolution content, since it contributes to perceived sharpness. To me this makes Catmull-rom the best compromise for chroma, since I find anything which rings more as unacceptable. If you're not bothered by the level of chroma ringing which Bicubic -0.75 produces, there is no reason to question your choice. Bicubic -0.75 very well may be the best compromise for you. Quote:
Using Spline36 luma on chroma which contains ringing will produce stronger ringing. Remember that madVR luma scaling is for resizing combined luma/chroma not just luma. In any case, they do complement each other: Increased contrast complements any reduction in chroma saturation. Increased sharpness complements any chroma blurring Reduction in aliasing complements any chorma aliasing Quote:
It happens with every video so it shouldn't need an example. It would seem you just aren't bothered it. Quote:
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A desire to hide ringing, noise, artifacts, and/or mastering problems in your source is a good reason to use SoftCubic luma. This is the entire reason I stressed that my choices based around high-quality source material which doesn't have flaws which need to be hidden. Quote:
It came up because it should be near-impossible to see fine detail after using SoftCubic luma scaling because of the strong reduction in contrast and softened edges. Using SoftCubic chroma has a near identical effect on making fine chroma detail near-impossible to see because of reductions in saturation and softened edges. The question then becomes, did you actually want to see what was hidden, or was it just artifacts? If it was actual real temporal detail and not artifacts on a higher quality source, would you then be bothered by not seeing it? You may just be the type of person who prefers a artifact-free, softer & denoised image, rather than a sharper one with more detail but minor artifacts. |
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14th December 2011, 10:43 | #11449 | Link | |
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1) Well-written software needs no effort to be ported to 64-bit architecture, it only needs (cross-)compilation. The only exception is hand-written assembly, which isn't hard to port either. 2) Existence of 64-bit OS is enough reason to have your software running there in native mode. zmaster clearly stated, that he wants madVR to work with 64-bit players and decoders, which may be faster than 32-bit. And he's not the only one who asks for it. BTW, it's general problem with closed-source software, which makes switching to the new architectures much harder, than it should be. |
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14th December 2011, 11:16 | #11450 | Link | |
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Video games nowadays look more and more like movies, so apart from the above cases, the desaturation is what bothers me the most WRT the current SoftCubic algorithm. Reducing the contrast is not something I would think is beneficial. On future OLEDs, we should see the desaturation even better, because it´s already apparent on LCDs. I guess that madshi would have to implement some kind of saturation boost into the SoftCubic algorithm or pre-process the image with more saturation, before SoftCubic gets applied. If we had some kind of manual control over saturation, we could also do it ourselves, though. If I understood madshi right, we are going to have some manual control over the final image, if we want to. Last edited by iSunrise; 14th December 2011 at 11:32. |
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14th December 2011, 11:36 | #11451 | Link | |
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14th December 2011, 11:59 | #11452 | Link | |
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14th December 2011, 14:13 | #11454 | Link |
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Anyone else have this behavior/bug (long standing issue, not linked to lastest versions):
Main screen is 1680x1050, 2nd display is TV running 1920x1080. Playing a video on TV in FullScreenExclusive accessing madVR trayicon (on the 1st display) to change language or subtitle causes the popup menu to just appear for split second and disappear right away. I have to leave FSE to be able to make the wanted change and then can go back to FSE. Any idea? Could it because TV has a bigger height than primary? |
14th December 2011, 19:40 | #11456 | Link |
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The minimize-catchup/speedup problem happens with most files that I have and the audio actually starts to cut when I minimize DVDs.
Also madshi, I know this may not be at the top of your priority list but if you can have built-in support for DVDs then the whole question of external dvd navigators and refresh rates would be easier to solve IMO. Thanks for all your hard work and I look forward to donating once you open up donations. |
15th December 2011, 01:00 | #11457 | Link |
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I'm having an issue with MadVR, which is basically preventing me from using this amazing plugin..
And that is, fullscreen interface is broken.. No volume adjust, not seeking, nothing.. I was reading on page 840 in this thread here http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...=1#post1544864 that it was pseudo fixed with MPC-HC 3011. I am using the main download from the home page (3456) and it's not working.. |
15th December 2011, 01:26 | #11458 | Link | |
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First, thank you very much for this extensive testing. The bug does occur here regardless of the ZP build, this includes ZP8 final. Strange if you've copied the exact ZP settings from my report and weren't able to reproduce the issue, as it happens most often here (8/10). (ZP8 final/madVR 0.79/nvidia 285.58whql) Now I found a workaround, which involves ZP auto-reloading the media right after frequency switch. It works wonders : ZP is restored to its "normal" state (no crash on seek due, no slow ZP interace painted on screen) and madVR keeps playing the media as if nothing happened.. but I don't think I should resort to be doing that in the first place ^^; Anyway, thanks for trying to reproduce. Right now I can't think of any other setting from madVR or ZP that could have an impact on the bug, but I'll keep experimenting..
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15th December 2011, 02:31 | #11459 | Link | |
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The only thing I miss when using FSE is having time in the seek bar. (both when hovering over a section on the bar, and having a current/total at the end of it) |
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15th December 2011, 06:54 | #11460 | Link | |
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Just go into MPC-HC's view menu and make sure you have the features you want checked. Also, for some reason you have to have MPC-HC's auto-hide (in the fullscreen settings) set to something other than 0. I use 1 sec. |
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direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling |
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